Adrian Newey's comments - blaming circuits not cars for lack of overtaking | FerrariChat
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Adrian Newey's comments - blaming circuits not cars for lack of overtaking

Discussion in 'F1' started by jknight, Jan 6, 2010.

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  1. jknight

    jknight F1 Veteran

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    #1 jknight, Jan 6, 2010
    Great read and very true - most races are borefests/snoozefests

    Carol

    crashnet

    Two of F1's most respected designers have suggested that rather than pointing the finger of blame for the lack of overtaking in the top flight at the design of the cars, the powers-that-be might do better to take a closer look at the layout of some of the circuits to which the annual circus travels.

    For years, aerodynamics and downforce have been vilified as the culprits that have turned grands prix all-too often into Sunday afternoon bore-a-thons, and whilst the reduction in downforce and return of slick tyres last season produced some improvement, there remains a long way to go – and the halcyon, wheel-to-wheel days of years gone-by remain a distant memory to most.

    Williams technical director Sam Michael and Red Bull Racing chief technical officer Adrian Newey – the most esteemed designer of his generation, if not of all time, with his cars having swept to more than 100 grand prix victories – contend that some tracks simply don't lend themselves to close competition, an issue that needs to be tackled with some urgency.

    “One thing that hasn't really been addressed at all so far is circuit design,” Michael told Racecar Engineering magazine. “You've got to ask yourself, why do you go to a race such as Barcelona where no-one overtakes, and then take exactly the same cars to Monza, Montreal or Hockenheim and you get lots of overtaking? Those cars are exactly the same aerodynamically, yet on one circuit they overtake a lot and on another circuit they don't overtake at all.

    “It's because of the circuit layout; it's because when they lay out circuits, they don't look closely enough at the combination of slow-speed corners onto straights followed by slow-speed corners. This is something that the FIA is dealing with now and having a really strong look at. If you look at somewhere like Abu Dhabi – which was a brand new circuit – there are some very good aspects to that circuit, but because there were some pretty fundamental mistakes there, they need to change them before next year.

    “There's no point being sensitive about it – ultimately there wasn't good enough racing in Abu Dhabi, and Formula 1 has to look at itself and ask why. You can't keep putting all of it on the car design all of the time. Of course the car design has some responsibility for it, and if you went to every circuit and you never saw any overtaking, then you could blame it all on the car design – but clearly that's not the case, because there are places where cars do overtake. Clearly this needs a pretty thorough look at. It's something the FIA has taken charge of now, so hopefully we'll see some good come out of it.”

    Indeed, the sport's governing body recently hosted a seminar aimed at investigating the means by which to boost overtaking in F1, reports ITV, with seven-time world champion and new Mercedes Grand Prix-signing Michael Schumacher, veteran Penske and G-Force designer Nigel Bennett and Hermann Tilke – the man responsible for many of the sport's not universally popular modern-day venues, dubbed 'Tilke-dromes' – all in attendance. Few changes are expected to be approved in time for the forthcoming campaign, however.

    “Fundamentally, I think the circuits are probably the biggest influence,” Newey opined. “Everybody keeps conveniently forgetting about that, as it is deemed to be easier to change the cars than change the circuits.”
     
  2. brian.s

    brian.s F1 Rookie
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    #2 brian.s, Jan 6, 2010
    Always been that way. The car should be way faster than possible to negotiate the next corner, ie needing to brake. That's the problem with the IRL, NASCRAP any of em, and why sportscars are so fun to watch, even DP's.
     
  3. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #3 VIZSLA, Jan 6, 2010
    Now that Adrian's signed on maybe people will see what's been obvious for years.
    Not that it will have any effect.
     
  4. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #4 kraftwerk, Jan 6, 2010
    He is right.
     
  5. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    #5 Bas, Jan 6, 2010
    Personally I think its a bit of both.
     
  6. snakeseare

    snakeseare Karting

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    #6 snakeseare, Jan 6, 2010
    To anyone, it's obvious the cars have outgrown the circuits. I rem 1977 when the German GP first moved to Hockenheim. The headline was "Mickey Mouse meets Super Rat." The Hockenheimring was considered "Mickey Mouse," and of course compared to the Nürburgring, it was. But over the years the cars "grew into" Hockenheim, and it became a great circuit, with the need for low downforce in the forest making the stadium section exciting as everyone skated through the Sachskurve, the Sudkurve and the Nordkurve. Real overtaking opportunities at the Ostkurve and the two chicanes made for great racing. And then of course Bernie wrecked it.

    Why do we watch this chit these days, exactly? Hey, I'm as guilty as anyone....
     
  7. GTE

    GTE F1 World Champ

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    #7 GTE, Jan 6, 2010
    I do miss the 'old' Hockenheim. What a track. What we got back in return is just a sign of the times.
     
  8. birddog

    birddog Formula Junior

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    #8 birddog, Jan 6, 2010
    No need to design a new circuit - bring 'em to Road America and let them stretch their legs!
     
  9. texasmr2

    texasmr2 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #9 texasmr2, Jan 6, 2010
    +1
     
  10. SorpassoRosso

    SorpassoRosso Karting

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    #10 SorpassoRosso, Jan 6, 2010
    He forgets to mention Monaco, far worse than Barcelona.
     
  11. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    #11 Bas, Jan 6, 2010
    Why WAS Hockenheimring changed anyhow?

    It used to be one of my favourite tracks, being just behind spa and just about equal with Monza. What a shame.
     
  12. 4rePhill

    4rePhill F1 Veteran

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    #12 4rePhill, Jan 6, 2010
    So how does Adrian Newey explain all the overtaking that occurs in GP2 races, run on the same circuits as F1, with cars that are even more identical than F1 cars?.

    I personally see the problem as being a combination of poor circuit layouts, cars deliberately designed to give the car behind little chance of staying close through the corners and drivers who are not prepared to just have a dive down the inside and "give it a go". This is where the GP2 boys have an edge when it comes to overtaking, they only worry about what can be gained where as the F1 boys worry too much about what they might lose.

    If you watch any of the motorbike racing, alot of the overtaking occurs not because of the width of the bike, but because the riders are prepared to "jam it down the inside",and make a move. Some times it pays off, sometimes it doesn't, but at least they give it a go.

    He doesn't mention Monaco because Monaco represents a unique challenge for the drivers. They see it as less of a race and more of a personal challenge for each and every lap. It becomes the driver Vs the circuit and a test of their concentration. Try to imagine driving within the confines of the circuit at the speeds they do, constantly looking at armoco, with every bend being blind.

    The difference for the drivers between Monaco and Barcelona is that the drivers don't get bored going round Monaco and it gives them a taste of a glorious past.

    Hockenheim got changed for two reasons really:

    1) It was felt that the drivers disappeared for too long from the fans while they were driving through the forests.

    2) The drivers themselves became too frightened of driving in the forest sections when it poured down with rain and they couldn't see fully where they were going. (They don't make drivers like they used to!)
     
  13. Remy Zero

    Remy Zero Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #13 Remy Zero, Jan 6, 2010
    Well, he's probably the best car designer of all time. Definitely right. They should replaced Tilke long time ago. He seems stuck to his long straights and ends with tight corners design. Look at Bahrain, probably one of the most boring circuit ever. It's just so fake.

    Then he Tilkenised the Hockenheimring. Some stuff are just best left alone...
     
  14. Remy Zero

    Remy Zero Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #14 Remy Zero, Jan 6, 2010
    LMAO! :D
     
  15. Papa G

    Papa G Formula 3

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    #15 Papa G, Jan 6, 2010
     
  16. 4rePhill

    4rePhill F1 Veteran

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    #16 4rePhill, Jan 6, 2010
    Like I say, the GP2 boys don't seem to have a problem finding places to overtake!.
     
  17. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #17 VIZSLA, Jan 6, 2010
    And there's passing on cart tracks.
    Slower cars can pass on tracks too tight for faster cars.
     
  18. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #18 william, Jan 7, 2010
    Old circuits become sanitized for safety and practical reasons whilst new ones that are built are just bland and innattractive.

    I blame Ecclestone and the FIA for having inspired the defacement of Hockehheim, Silverstone, Monza, Imola, etc ... and orchestrated the birth the Middle East and Far East tracks that are so, so boring. Employing the same architect for all these venues (Tilke) is complete madness.

    For love or money, I will NEVER watch a GP in Singapore: probably one of the worst environment to see a GP!!

    Monaco is in a different league; it will never and cannot change, but its name on a GPs lists is left unchallenged.
     

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