Advantage of Carbon Ceramic Brakes: Aston AMV8 vs F430 | FerrariChat

Advantage of Carbon Ceramic Brakes: Aston AMV8 vs F430

Discussion in '360/430' started by birdness, Dec 30, 2005.

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  1. birdness

    birdness Karting

    Mar 12, 2005
    86
    Toronto
    Does anyone know what advantage the carbon ceramic brakes give on the Nurburgring course? The reason I am asking is that I am considering both the Aston AMV8 as well as the F430. The N'ring time of the AMV8 is 8:03 with the Pirelli P zero tires (regular brakes) and the time for the F430 is 7:55 with the same tires and carbon ceramic brakes. Does anyone have any idea what the F430 time would be with regular brakes? If I go ahead with the F430 it would be with regular brakes so I would like to compare apples with apples. Before I get flamed I know that the 2 cars are completely different. I adore the beauty and sportiness of the F430 but I also like the "mystique" and understatedness behind the Aston Martin. The AMV8 is actually much sportier than the other Astons in the product range. The fact that the AMV8 can do 8:03 with normal brakes and 100 hp less than the F430 is a credit to the engineering behind the car. Do not get me wrong, I also really like the F430 and I am having a hard time deciding.
     
  2. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
    3,637
    Los Altos Hills, CA
    Full Name:
    Gary B.
    I don't have any idea how hard the Ring is on brakes but if there are areas where the hard braking zones are close enough together to cause conventional brakes to fade, the ceramics would be faster. How much is very difficult to say. In fact any comparison of lap times on the Ring is just silly unless the times are done on the same day with the same driver. I would anticipate that with all things equalized the F430 is significantly quicker on any road course than the Aston - just look at the road tests for acceleration times, and the F430 is much lighter, so should have a big cornering and braking advantage.

    Gary
     
  3. amenasce

    amenasce Three Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 17, 2001
    34,435
    Full Name:
    Joe Mansion
    The AMV8 and F430 times at the ring show 2 possibilities :


    -Either that developping a car there will result in an amazing lap time compared to a car that wasnt ( case here )

    -Ferrari sucks on the track/AM suddenly are trackcars


    I certainly hope the first possibility is the truth because how can an AMV8 be that fast compared to a mid engine-+100hp-+downforce-+lighter car ?
     
  4. bostonmini

    bostonmini Formula 3

    Nov 8, 2003
    1,890
    IMO of course, ppl vastly overrate carbon brakes, they are helpful on a track of course but it takes a hell of a lot of abuse to experience significant fade on the street. Good steel brakes are adequate for road driving and much cheaper to maintain.
     
  5. RussianM3_dude

    RussianM3_dude F1 Rookie
    BANNED

    Mar 15, 2004
    4,097
    Switzerland/Montreal
    Full Name:
    Nikolai Petroff
    Sounds weird. The Ferrari should be considerably faster then the Aston. 110hp difference is a lot. Plus everybody commented on how the Aston does not really feel that fast.
     
  6. birdness

    birdness Karting

    Mar 12, 2005
    86
    Toronto
    I certainly hope the first possibility is the truth because how can an AMV8 be that fast compared to a mid engine-+100hp-+downforce-+lighter car ?[/QUOTE]

    The AMV8 is mid-engine, but front mid-engine. The engine is completely behind the front axle.
     
  7. sandersja

    sandersja Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2003
    367
    Portland OR
    Full Name:
    John Sanders
    I am dismayed to hear that this trivial difference matters so much in your (or anyone's) choice.
     
  8. birdness

    birdness Karting

    Mar 12, 2005
    86
    Toronto
    The fact that it is a trivial difference is important. Aston, in its first attempt to produce a true sports car instead of a GT, has gotten very close to F430 performance with 100hp less and no carbon ceramic brakes. Rather than denigrate Ferrari, let us give kudos to Aston for pulling it off. For the first time you can now choose an Aston and not feel that you are sacrificing performance for "exclusivity", which has always been the trump card for Aston.
     
  9. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
    3,637
    Los Altos Hills, CA
    Full Name:
    Gary B.
    Oh my. You don't really believe that, do you? The 430 is MUCH faster, just drive both cars. Have you been listening to your own thread?

    If you want the AM, by all means buy it. It's a beautiful car. But do yourself a favor and don't try to believe some fairy tale about performance it can't live up to.

    Gary
     
  10. ThePusher

    ThePusher Formula Junior

    Aug 27, 2004
    264
    I am looking at a similar decision. For me it is the AMV8 or a used 360 (since they are priced the same).

    The AMV8 is fast and Aston has done a great job with the car. Sat in one, spent a lot of time around a few, and I have a test drive coming up soon. The car looks stunning in the flesh... I actually prefer it to all of the current Ferrari designs. It is hand "assembled" and quality seems very high from early reports. While dubbed a sports car it really fits in between a hard GT and a sports car. But it can really pull off everyday driving duty and has a huge luggage area for a car in this category. And the car is LOUD!

    BUT... there is something about a Ferrari that is undeniable... a pure sports car quality. While the Aston has exclusivity, the Ferrari has passion. Listening to a 360 with stage 3 Capristo exhaust puts a shiver in my spine. The Ferrari is more expensive to maintain and less convincing as an every day car. Choices, choice...

    Back to the topic... The Aston and the 360 are probably similar in performance numbers (not in feel) but the 430 is definitely a step up from either one. Of course a 430 is also $60-80K more expensive and we can debate whether that amount of money is worth the performance gain and a horse on the hood.

    Kudos to Aston for a beautiful car that has reached an impressive level of performance. And kudos to Ferrari for re-writing the book on what a sports car should be...
     
  11. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,614
    The Brickyard
    Full Name:
    The Bad Guy
    In my opinion, unless you plan on tracking your car ALOT, like every weekend and threashold break all day long, ceramic break rotors are a waist of money. Yes they do have an advantage over traditional breaks, but they are SUPER expensive to replace. Unlike metal rotors you cannot resurface them. Once they are done, they are done, and brand new ones must be fitted.

    Save your money.
     
  12. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

    Apr 26, 2003
    13,477
    Never home
    Full Name:
    Dr. Dumb Ass
    Unless you are a professional driver and plan on racing the car in a series, lap times are pointless. Go drive each and figure out which one you like better. Buy that one.
     
  13. birdness

    birdness Karting

    Mar 12, 2005
    86
    Toronto
    According to the Sportauto test at the Ring, the F430 is only 8 seconds faster and that is with CCB. Also, not to mention the paddle shifters which are useful on a track. I wonder what time the AMV8 would do with an extra 100hp like the F430? The only point I am trying to make is that if I choose the AMV8, I am sacrificing some performance but not enough that it would really make a difference to me as I do not intend to track the car. The other issue is that in Canada you can order an F430 from the dealer at "MSRP", but that MSRP is over $50,000 higher than in the US. The base price in Canadian dollars for for an AMV8 is $140,000 vs $255,000 for an F430 (no electric seats, etc). Why Ferrari North America tolerates this is unknown to me.
    Can anyone convince me to spend the extra $115,000? Don't get me wrong I have adored Ferrari since I was a boy, but one cannot deny the attraction of the Aston. I should look on the bright side and be glad that I have the "problem" of trying to choose between 2 great cars. Happy New year to all
     
  14. ThePusher

    ThePusher Formula Junior

    Aug 27, 2004
    264
    Birdness

    Like I said in my previous post it is really personal preference. Personally, my current plan is to buy an AMV8 and use it as an every day car. Then I am going to wait for used 360CS or used 430 prices to decline a bit and pick one up later. Why? Because I can't justify the price delta to the Ferrari for what you get in return. Also you will find that used Ferrari's are very low mileage and there are typically MANY examples in great condition (even 5+ years old).

    Don't get me wrong... The Ferrari is a big step up from the AMV8 in performance, passion, etc. but I can't justify the price increase AND end up with a car I won't be comfortable driving every day. So for me, I will pick up an AMV8 which I won't hesitate piling the miles on and watch Ferrari prices over the next few years (this could be an even better idea in Canada).

    I am not personally sold on the 430 styling anyway. So I will most likely keep my eye out for a Challenge Stradale as the price drop below $150K in the next few years.

    Here are some questions for you:

    1. How important is performance in your buying decision? Is a few seconds at the Nurburgring or a few tenths in 0-60 a big deal to you?

    2. How important is racing pedigree? Or badge? How do you rate AM vs. Ferrari?

    3. How often do you plan on using the car? Daily driver or weekend warrios?

    4. Do you plan on tracking the car?

    5. How much luggage space do you want/need?

    6. What other cars do you have to complement this purchase?
     
  15. 20C4S

    20C4S Formula Junior

    Dec 5, 2003
    394
    u're comparing apple to orange. much beyond the brake.
     
  16. birdness

    birdness Karting

    Mar 12, 2005
    86
    Toronto
    Dear Pusher,

    I'm glad to see someone in roughly the same predicament that I am. In response to your questions:

    1. How important is performance in your buying decision? Is a few seconds at the Nurburgring or a few tenths in 0-60 a big deal to you?

    A: It is moderately important. I'm not keen on a souped up Asian import smoking me at a red light, although I don't race from red lights I want to know that they can't do it.

    2. How important is racing pedigree? Or badge? How do you rate AM vs. Ferrari?

    A:There is no comparison between the Ferrari and Aston racing pedigrees. As far as I know, Aston has been successful at le mans on several occasions but I am not an expert on their history. The Ferrari history speaks for itself.
    In terms of AM vs Ferrari in terms of badge and rating I think they are quite different. AM has always been more exclusive and hence more mysterious. I have only seen a handful in my lifetime vs. a whole bunch of Fcars. In terms of performance and passion no question Ferrari comes out on top. Overall, however, I'm not so sure. If I meet 2 individuals, one with a ferrari and 1 with an AM, I think I would be more impressed with the AM. It is more understated and the "bling" effect is not there.Fewer people will think you're a poser. As I read in another forum, in an AM you would not look out of place in sports attire or a black tie, which I do not think is the case for Ferrari. Overall, I would put AM a notch above Ferrari because of exclusivity.

    3. How often do you plan on using the car? Daily driver or weekend warrios?

    A: Daily driver in the short Canadian summer

    4. Do you plan on tracking the car? A: No


    5. How much luggage space do you want/need? A: Not very important, other cars for this (Audi a4 and minivan)

    All the best for the New Year
     
  17. nasharty

    nasharty Formula Junior

    Dec 3, 2004
    447
    Geneva
    A friend of mine bought an AMV8. I raced with him on a straight line twice with two of my cars; 360 Modena F1 and Merc E55 AMG. He lost on both.
    We even exchanged cars and he tried my 360 and my E55 while I was in his AMV8. I lost when I drove the AMV8.
    Therefore, it's not a question of driver, it's the car. You want to buy an AMV8, fine. You will love it and enjoy every bit of it. It is a very nice car. But for the sake of humanity, don't compare it to the F430.

    The ring times you got are useless. Unless both cars were driven the same day by the same driver, the ring times are not valid. The ring is 20.8 Kilometers long and has more corners per lap than driving in the city for a week. 1% change in weather's temperature and humidity can lead to different lap times. You are surprised (shocked) that the F430 manages only 7:55, but I am actually happy it did that. The driver drove it once and for only one lap he got 7:55, while the AMV8 was driven hundreds of laps to manage 8:03. That's of course not forgetting that both cars were not driven by the same driver.

    Buying the AMV8 because you like it and is cheaper; you have my complete respect.
    But buying the AMV8 because you are trying to convince yourself it is as powerful and cheaper; is a lame excuse.
     
  18. birdness

    birdness Karting

    Mar 12, 2005
    86
    Toronto
    The AMV8 time was done by Von Saurma who is the editor in chief of Sport Auto. It was a 1 shot deal and not the best lap from an Aston Martin test driver as you suggest. I agree with you that Nring track times can be useless because of variability in conditions, tires, test drivers etc. However, you cannot assume that the 7:55 lap time for the F430 is a result of poor conditions/ driver. Statistically, it is just as probable that the conditions for the F430 test were better than those for the AMV8 test.Probabilities work in both directions!! Just because the time for the F430 is not that earth-shattering is no reason to assume that it is due to conditons other than the car. The ring times are just for comparison because that is all we have. We've been thru this when the new M5 results came in. How could a 4 door saloon keep up withan F430??It must be the conditions, driver, and whatever else you can think of. God forbid that there are other worthy cars out there!!
     
  19. nasharty

    nasharty Formula Junior

    Dec 3, 2004
    447
    Geneva
    Shoving seconds off a lap time on the ring is easy, especially if it was the first lap. The 7:55 time was the first lap and the first time (and the only time) the driver drove the F430. So talking about statistics (which you brought up), the F430 can be way faster than 7:55.

    Oh, and the M5 couldn't keep up with an F430, except if you are aiming for top speed with a de-limited M5. You are talking about numbers you read while I am talking about real life experience. Even an M6 isn't as good as an F430. Until you try these cars in real life, a little example for you is to watch the Clarkson Heaven and Hell DVD. Here is the torrent link http://www.mininova.org/tor/153942

    And here is a link to a thread on m5borad where a member bought both an F430 and an M6. Look for yourself what real people are saying about the car. http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=57464&highlight=m6+f430
     
  20. Fly'n DutchMan

    Fly'n DutchMan Karting

    Oct 4, 2005
    248
    Agoura Hills CA
    Full Name:
    Sander Brouwers
    Also, if you comparing a F430 lap time with off the showroom standard metalic brakes to a F430 with carbon brakes you might see some difference in lap time, but if you put a real race compound pad in both systems you probably won't see much difference unless you were running a enduro.

    Carbon ceramics aren't going increase the overal rate at which a car can brake, becuase the limiting factor is the tires grip on the road. You have to run a car for extended periods of time under racing conditions for the ceramic brakes to really be of an advantage. For example in a 12-24 hour enduro you'd probably need to change brake pads and/or rotors once or twice with metalic while you'd require fewer pad and/or rotor changes with ceramics.

    If you've ever looked at the one time stopping distance between a car with crappy stock brakes that is then upgraded to a big brake kit from Brembo or StopTech you hardly see any improvement in stopping distance, usually less than 3%.

    Ceramic brakes are better because they are more durable and have longer service life extreme use, not because they actually stop the car quicker and a good set of metalics with a good racing compound pad.
     
  21. Q..

    Q.. Formula 3

    Jun 29, 2004
    1,332
    Qld
    Full Name:
    Paul
    birdness

    Have you actually DRIVEN the AMV8 ????????????????????
    If so, I doubt you would even need to ask.

    If you are not going to track the car, why are you concerned about racetrack times ?

    As gorgeous as the AMV8 is, it is also heavy, harsh, labourious, and does not FEEL particularly fast.
    I was about to purchase an AMV8 as a daily driver, and changed my mind after a few hours with the car in "real world" conditions.

    As surprising as it may sound, IMHO, the 360 makes for a better daily driver.....
     
  22. napoleon

    napoleon Karting

    Dec 23, 2005
    158

    Hi, Pusher,

    I know that it´s a topic but only in u the answer is. With ferrari u can´t ask logical questions, ask yourself and put in a balance: how much "red" blood flows trough your vains and how much the passion weight´s in you. The answer is there althoug I agree that the new AMV8 it´s also a bit spicy.

    Take care
     
  23. chris430

    chris430 Karting

    Oct 30, 2005
    182
    DEAR FRIEND

    THERE IS NO POINT TO COMPARE, FERRARI IS IN RACING CLASS AND ASTON MARTIN IS A GT; YOU BETTER READ MORE ABOUT THESE 2 DIFFERENT CARS.
    FERRARI 430 IS A SUPER SPORT CAR AND ASTON MARTIN IS A GT. I DO NOT KNOW WHERE DID YOU GET THE INFORMATION FROM, BUT IS NOT CORRRECT, YOU BETTER READ AUTO MOTOR UND SPORT AND LOOK AT THE TIME OF BOTH CARS IN NURBURING AND ARE NOT THE ONES YOU SPECIFY, F430 IS MUCH QUIKER WITH AN IMPORTANT FIFFERENCE, MAKING TIMES CLOSE R TO THE PORSCHE CARRERA GT.
     
  24. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 20, 2003
    16,673
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Full Name:
    Matt F
    Didn't ProDrive choose between Ferrari and Aston Martin for racing?
     
  25. ThePusher

    ThePusher Formula Junior

    Aug 27, 2004
    264
    Napolean

    I agree with your points. Listening to a 360 fire up with a Capristo Stage 3 exhaust is mind-blowing. If you have any "Rossa Corsa" blood in your veins you will be affected.

    However, everybody is in a different situation and I only ask the questions to help the poster make a decision (and to find out how red his blood is)... Due to maintenance, costs, mileage sensitivity on value, etc a Ferrari is not as god as a daily driver. Some won't care and drive it every day and they are my heros. I believe a Ferrari should be driven until the wheels fall off... then restored... then driven until the wheels fall off... repeat.

    The Aston is significantly cheaper and will not have the same issues as Ferrari... it will have different ones. The AM will have great exclusivity for the money, stunning looks, and a good drive but it won't have that red blooded passion.

    The question the poster has is how much is that passion and additional performance worth? Does it = Ferrari $ - AM $? I would say yes assuming you could afford either car.
     

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