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After 15k still problems.

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by jscar71, Jun 4, 2005.

  1. jscar71

    jscar71 Formula Junior

    Jul 14, 2004
    354
    Montreal Qc, Canada
    Full Name:
    JScar
    I just gave my 84 mondial it's major tune-up. The car runs and sounds like it rolled off the lot yesterday. It's a beautiful thing.

    I changed everything that needed to be changed with all original Ferrari Parts.

    But like today, the weather in Montreal is over 30c and after running it for a while, when I shut it off it does not want to start. I need to have it cooled off for about 30min before it will start again. (only happens on warm days.)

    The car cranks but it will not start.

    I know this topic has been discussed at nausia in this forum, but I'm so frustrated, I really don't have the patience to filter through all those treads.

    With the Grand Prix one week away, I urge you guys not to leave me stranded at the side of the road. HELP.

    I've been advised that it may the the fuel pump. What do you think.

    Fuel Pump, relay, filter, etc...

    Again guys, I'm counting on you. HELP OUT A FELLOW FERRARISTA.
     
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  3. zan

    zan Formula Junior

    Nov 15, 2002
    537
    Boston
    Full Name:
    Mark M
    fuel accumulator
     
  4. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
    8,520
    Melbourne
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    Phil Hughes
    Or even just the one way valve on the outlet of the pump.

    Remember, services do not include ANY repairs. It's just preventative maintenance and adjustments. Sometimes you get lucky, but you cannot assume this.

    What are your gas analyser readings at the service?
     
  5. jscar71

    jscar71 Formula Junior

    Jul 14, 2004
    354
    Montreal Qc, Canada
    Full Name:
    JScar
    Why only when it's hot, just came back from a 1:30hr drive, highway. cruising, all types, but because the sun is not beating and it cooled down to about 26c. I stopped the car, and it started right up. No Hesitation. WEIRD. I'll talk to my ferrari mechanic and bring that up, we will see what he says.
     
  6. carguy

    carguy F1 Rookie

    Oct 30, 2002
    3,317
    Alabama (was Mich.)
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    Jeff
    I would guess it's something to do with the ignition system. The fuel accumulators as previosly mentioned would not have a significant effect on starting, as they are simply spring loaded diaphragms. Their job is to keep the system pressurized for a time after shut-down, and to smooth out fuel system pressure pulses caused by the fuel pumps when running. I think it's more of an electrical/high-resistance problem somewhere when hot. A sensor(s) or ignition coil?
     
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  8. jscar71

    jscar71 Formula Junior

    Jul 14, 2004
    354
    Montreal Qc, Canada
    Full Name:
    JScar
    My thoughts also, but replaced most of that last year and the problem still persists.

    I also brought it into a Ferrari Autorized Dealer and was told the ignition system was functioning properly.
     
  9. fastaone

    fastaone Karting

    Jan 9, 2004
    192
    Long Island
    Full Name:
    Peter F
  10. jscar71

    jscar71 Formula Junior

    Jul 14, 2004
    354
    Montreal Qc, Canada
    Full Name:
    JScar
  11. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
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    If it is ignition, the most likely culprit is the cranks ensors or their connections. Checking resistance at the ECU connector will be a quick diagnosis, but you can start by checking the sensors directly if you don't have the wiring diagram.
     
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  13. No Doubt

    No Doubt Six Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    May 21, 2005
    66,143
    Vegas+Alabama
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    Mr. Sideways
    So what is "cooled off" after 30 minutes that makes a difference? On some cars, if the fuel lines get hot, you'll get a sort of vapor lock that hinders fuel flow until the fuel lines cool down. It could also be any component from the fuel pump to the fuel accumulator to (presuming you have fuel injection) the fuel rails to the fuel injectors.

    I've thought about doing to my Ferrari 348 what I did to my Porsche 928...by going back to Home Depot, picking up some $3 "air conditioning" insulation, and wrapping those self-adhesive gray "tubes" around the fuel lines and fuel rails in the engine bay...just as preventitive maintenance.

    Engine hood insulation would probably work, too...instead of the gray home air conditioning tubes.

    Keep some heat away from your fuel lines and fuel rails and I bet that your hot-start problem disappears.
     
  14. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
    1,951
    Kingsport, TN
    Full Name:
    Lawrence A. Coppari
    Low fuel pressure due to internal leak at accumulator or check valve. If you don't maintain sufficient pressure in system, you get vapor lock.

    To check electrics you could remove one spark plug lead. Get a spare spark plug and attach to lead. Ground plug body to block using jumper cables or whatever you have on hand. This should be done when engine is in a 'no start mood'. If you are getting a spark at the plug when you crank, then problem is fuel related. My bet is that it is fuel related.
     
  15. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Consultant Owner

    May 5, 2001
    7,000
    Groton, MA
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    Verell Boaen
    I see, instead you want us to take an extra amount of our time to write it up special for you. We've already written down several times before.

    If you can't bother to search the archives, then maybe you should consider getting a new vehicle & a different forum.

    Anyway, a bad fuel accumulator is the most common cause of hot start problems.
     
  16. carguy

    carguy F1 Rookie

    Oct 30, 2002
    3,317
    Alabama (was Mich.)
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    Jeff
    In reading comments after my previous post...I would like to apologize to ZAN and others who mentioned the fuel accumulator as a possible cause of this problem. I didn't give this possibility enough thought before brashly stating I suspected something ignition related. It does make sense to me now, if vapor lock is occuring. But...aren't there two fuel accumulators on the car though? Unless BOTH were bad, wouldn't at least one bank try to fire up?
     
  17. jscar71

    jscar71 Formula Junior

    Jul 14, 2004
    354
    Montreal Qc, Canada
    Full Name:
    JScar
    No one put a gun to your head to respond. But thanks anyway for your input.
     
  18. jscar71

    jscar71 Formula Junior

    Jul 14, 2004
    354
    Montreal Qc, Canada
    Full Name:
    JScar
    So by replacing the fuel accumulaters I should at least eliminate the possibility of Vapor lock?
     
  19. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
    19,875
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    Only if you also replace the check valve at the fuel pump outlet (which can also cause the supply pressure to drop too quickly after warm shut-off) per Phil's post #3.

    On a TR, we've got pairs of accumulators and fuel pump check valves so via swapping you can deduce the bad player, but on the (single fuel supply) V8s, I can't think of an easy way to determine which component would be causing the supply fuel pressure to drop too quickly (if indeed that is your problem).
     
  20. No Doubt

    No Doubt Six Time F1 World Champ
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    May 21, 2005
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    Mr. Sideways
    Not entirely. That's just the most common cause of vapor lock. A bad check valve on your fuel pump could cause vapor lock, too...as could hot fuel rails, or even hot fuel lines (presuming that you are driving a fuel injected F-car).

    So can a weak fuel pump.

    Try to narrow down your problem. For instance, is your car hard to start when hot because the engine is flooded with fuel (i.e. a bad fuel injector) or because no fuel is getting to the engine (i.e. vapor lock)?
     
  21. alfa-guy

    alfa-guy Rookie

    Jan 27, 2004
    42
    could also be one or more leaking injectors. Anything that cause a loss of residual fuel pressure could cause a hot start problem.

    CIS injectors are a notorious weak point in the system.

    The only real way to diagnose this (besides throwing parts at it) is to hook up a fuel pressure gauge and check the fuel pressures (especially the 'residual' or 'rest' pressures.

    HTH,

    Jeff
     
  22. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

    Jan 31, 2002
    11,248
    Colorado
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    Dave
    I had this problem once with a QV I used to own. It was related to leaky injectors. If the injectors are all original, you may very well have one or more leaking. They are fairly easy to remove and can be checked. If you have bad ones, don't bother cleaning, just get new ones. They aren't very expensive as injectors go, but get them from like an MB dealer or independent source. Have then checked before installing. One very good tech told me some are bad right out of the box.

    Dave
     
  23. geekstreet

    geekstreet Karting

    Feb 7, 2005
    220
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Cam
    Can you describe the problem a bit more? OK, the car's been warmed up. If you turn it off & then restart within say 5-10 seconds does it fire-up? Is it only a problem if it sits for a few minutes before restarting? This may be relevant to vapour-lock, pump check-valve & accumulator leaks.

    Note that when "cold" additional fuel-delivery circuitry kicks-in, which is why some priblems only show-up when warm.
     
  24. jscar71

    jscar71 Formula Junior

    Jul 14, 2004
    354
    Montreal Qc, Canada
    Full Name:
    JScar
    It is fuel injected, and I did notice that one of the injectors had a little leak, I tightened it and it doesn't ;eak anymore, but the problem seems to persist.
     
  25. jscar71

    jscar71 Formula Junior

    Jul 14, 2004
    354
    Montreal Qc, Canada
    Full Name:
    JScar
    If the car is cool I can start it and stop it, no issues. If I drive it at night when it is cooler, even for 1 to 2 hrs, usually I have no problems, but if it sits in the sun and it is very hot outside, it will start, but if I begin driving it in those conditions and the cars heat plus the weather outside combined, even 20 to 30 minutes of driving will cause the hot start problem.

    Example the other day it was sitting in the sun all day. When I went to start it, it caranked for about 5 to 10 seconds but started. I drove it for 15 minutes to a local garage station to gas it up. Shut off the car and it would then no longer start. After about 30min to 45min of waiting at the garage. Tried it again and it started right up. Drove it for about 1 hr (it was now around 8pm so sun was going down.) got home, shut the car and then tried to start it up and "BINGO" it did start up over and over again. It really only happens in hot temperatures and with the actual heat of the car combined.
     
  26. No Doubt

    No Doubt Six Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    May 21, 2005
    66,143
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    Mr. Sideways
    The kind of leak that would give you a hot-start problem is often too small to directly see...just the smallest dribble...and I mean the smallest...right after you shut off the engine will cause trouble. So if you've actually *seen* fuel leak out of an injector, I'd certainly replace that one injector (and would probably replace the rest of them while I was at it).

    Even if that leaky injector isn't causing you *this* particular problem, it will find a way to bite you on down the road.

    Replace your accumulator. Replace your leaky fuel injector(s). Wrap $3 Home Depot gray-colored home air conditioning insulation (or underhood silver insulation) around your fuel lines and fuel rails (just cut holes out for your fuel injectors to pass through).

    If the hot-start problem persists, then replace the rest of your fuel injectors and your check valve on your fuel pump.

    If the problem persists after that, then replace your fuel pump itself.
     
  27. jscar71

    jscar71 Formula Junior

    Jul 14, 2004
    354
    Montreal Qc, Canada
    Full Name:
    JScar
    Very helpful, thanks.
     
  28. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
    16,078
    Arlington Heights IL
    Full Name:
    Kenneth
    Just a silly question, but have you tried to start it hot by pressing the accelerator pedal to the floor? That actually works, even on FI cars. If you haven't tried that then do so; might save a lot of money and waiting time.

    Ken
     

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