Air in Mechanical Fuel injection System | Page 3 | FerrariChat

Air in Mechanical Fuel injection System

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Napolis, Mar 25, 2009.

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  1. MiuraP400

    MiuraP400 Formula Junior

    Feb 3, 2008
    960
    Arizona
    Full Name:
    Jim
    Doing a little brainstorming on this issue. Is it possible the low pressure pump is on its way out? I.e. if the low pressure pump is not putting out enough capacity, the main fuel pump could be sucking the FI tank dry after a fairly short period of time. When you let the pumps come up to pressure when you start it, the low pressure pump has enough capacity to partially fill the FI tank. But when you run the engine the low pressure pump can not keep up with demand. Have you checked the low capacity pump to see if it is functioning like it should?

    Cheers Jim
     
  2. brian.s

    brian.s F1 Rookie
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 3, 2003
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    I'll check on Monday for the Bosch part #. There are only a couple that will maintain flow/pressure and they aren't cheap, I think they are Porsche Turbo maybe. Certainly would suspect your high pressure as I believe in "if things don't change, they must stay as they were", therfore something occured while sitting. Also where and what filters are used, is there a fuel cell with foam?
     
  3. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Thanks All.
     
  4. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Ok. It seems Sal has been mixing in a touch of oil for years so that's under control. We spoke to Kinsler who's a friend. We're going to ship her to Brian Joseph who's shop is near Kinsler. Brian restored our Duesenberg and Studz. Sal is going to work with Brian and Kinsler to get to the bottom of this once and for all and have our pumps, high and low, check valves and distributor checked and bench flowed. We'll then test out there and bring her home. May take her to Meadowbrook first.

    Will Report.

    Thanks!!
     
  5. ggjjr

    ggjjr Formula Junior

    Nov 11, 2003
    932
    Detroit
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    George
    Jim,
    Do you spend any time visiting Brian's shop?

    George
     
  6. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Hi

    Yes. A great shop. Will definitely go there again when 0846 is there.

    Best
     
  7. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

    May 17, 2006
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    Good luck with it - when I saw this title come back up to the top, I was hoping you had it fixed and were going to tell us the answer.

    I for one am totally baffled how air (or whatever, fuel vapor?) could get into the high pressure part of the system unless it came in through the vacuum side of the low pressure system...but I guess that's just me.

    Be sure and let us know what happened!
     
  8. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    #58 Napolis, May 12, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  9. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    #59 Napolis, May 13, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  10. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 29, 2006
    18,221
    Twin Cities
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    Tim Keseluk
    That test setup is just "Rube Goldberg" enough to be the work of a real genius. ;)
     
  11. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
    4,300
    Cape Town, South Afr
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    Jack Verschuur
    Been following this with interest. I think the suggestion that the feeder pump can't keep the accumulator tank up to level is a great one to investigate.
    Otherwise we need to bear in mind that in a pressurized system, the ingress of air is rather difficult.
    Could it be that the primary mechanical pump has too much pressure, and thus thepressure difference over the secundary pump is too little?

    For an electrical pump, I'd think that even the pump of a Jag EFI V-12 would have enough capacity, and they are plentyful from a junkerif just to try it out.

    The test set-up sure looks intrigueing!
     
  12. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Problem is not plumbing or pumps. Problem is Lucas Unit. Shuttle is worn and way out of spec. Rebuild should fix problem. While we're at it we'll also Blueprint slide throttles, intake manifold, pumps, PSI relief valves, one way valves, injectors, etc.
    but problem isn't with those components or engineering.

    As an aside I have a rebuilt Lucas MKII unit that fits a BBLM or a 512S/M which I don't need and would sell should anyone need one.

    The Test Bench is very cool. It checks flow at idle and max revs and gives you a place to start.
     
  13. brian.s

    brian.s F1 Rookie
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    Nov 3, 2003
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    I mentioned before that on one of my DFVs the injection pump was bypassing way too much due to wear in the shuttle sleeve. After repair the engine ran far better at all rpm's. Glad you have found something. I sent mine to the UK FWIW, around $500 a cople years back.
     
  14. brian.s

    brian.s F1 Rookie
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    #64 brian.s, May 14, 2009
    Last edited: May 14, 2009
    I hated rebuilding the slides! It is absolutely important to follow the original pattern of ball/rollers and total cleanliness, the gas is enough lubrication (another reason to use the 2 cycle oil).

    i've redone those a couple of times between practices at GPs, once at the Glen and at Monza.
     
  15. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    We're getting closer. Jim Kinsler rebuilt and cleaned the slide throttles. He flow tested the intake manifold and blueprinted it. (It was off). He rebuilt and flowed the fuel distributor which was WAY off. Sal and him will begin to put it all back tomorrow and I'm hopefull that I'll be test driving her this weekend.

    I'm very impressed with Kinsler.
     
  16. JCR

    JCR F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 14, 2005
    11,109
    H-Town, Tejas
    Yes, he has the reputation as the MFI guy. Keep us posted on the progress.
     
  17. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Jim also found that the injector nozzles were different and out of spec. Getting them out wasn't easy but he did and he replaced them.

    Should begin to go back together today.
     
  18. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

    May 17, 2006
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    Glad to hear this is getting itself back together.

    EDIT - didn't mean "itself" - meant glad you guys are getting it back together. Probably at great effort.
     
  19. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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  20. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

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    Looking great!

    May we expect some vid of the start-up? Pretty please?

    Is that the floor of the new playroom?
     
  21. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    No car is at a friends shop near Kinsler. From there it will go to Meadowbrook.
     
  22. brian.s

    brian.s F1 Rookie
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    Nov 3, 2003
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    So glad it's coming back together. It seems that the problem was as on mine, too much clearance in the pump body? these are basically a simple system, but need care to set up and maintain.

    Brian
     
  23. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    I think that was the major problem. The plumbing was correct. The check valves were OK. The low and high PSI pumps were fine. The intake manual needed work to make it flow evenly and the injectors were shot and dirty so we replaced them. We should be trying to start her in a few hours.
     
  24. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #74 Napolis, Jul 10, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  25. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
    Owner Project Master

    May 10, 2006
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    John!
    That made my Friday. Looks great
     

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