Air Pump injection system | FerrariChat

Air Pump injection system

Discussion in '206/246' started by npwmd2, Apr 30, 2017.

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  1. npwmd2

    npwmd2 Karting

    Mar 31, 2015
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    Neal
    Curious if anyone still has the air pump system connected on their dino and if so do they think the car runs better?
     
  2. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Brian Crall
    It take 1 hp or less to drive the pump. How can it influence running quality? Air injection is a nearly passive system. One of the reasons it was a good method of cleaning exhaust.
     
  3. TTR

    TTR F1 Veteran
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    +1.
    My interpretation/understanding, perhaps incorrect, of the design & purpose of air pump is to add/inject "fresh"(?) air to exhaust so that the emissions would at least appear cleaner.
    It shouldn't have much, if any, effect on operational running/tune of the motor.
     
  4. npwmd2

    npwmd2 Karting

    Mar 31, 2015
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    Neal
    Agreed, so why did everyone the system removed?
     
  5. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    No. Hydrocarbons exist in exhaust because the O2 was all burned. Introducing O2 with heat and HC present allows residual HC to burn. In cars with poor quality fuel metering(Carburettors) it makes the exhaust much cleaner.


    Smog laws were not about making it appear cleaner.
     
  6. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Primarily because there was so much ignorance. People did not understand how it worked but if the government required it, it must be bad. In the early days people were disconnecting and plugging PCV systems for the same reason. PCV systems were one of the best improvements ever made to the piston engine and plugging it insured high oil consumption, poor running, possible blown out gaskets and seals but by God they got rid of that terrible smog control.

    The drive to reduce smog has brought about more development, improvement and increases in horsepower than anything the auto industry ever did on its own.
     
    Mark C Harvey likes this.
  7. racerboy9

    racerboy9 F1 Rookie
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    Nov 3, 2003
    2,520
    The air injected exhaust manifolds were insulated with fiberglass within a sheet metal skin either because the air injection made the manifolds hotter and to reduce heat in the engine bay or to keep the manifolds hotter to help reduce emissions or maybe both.
     
  8. TTR

    TTR F1 Veteran
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    #8 TTR, Apr 30, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2017
    Thanks for the explanation.
    I sort of knew that and never thought the regulation itself being about the appearance of clean, but thought/suspected (perhaps mistakenly) some of the technology employed by (auto) manufacturers having been developed to that end, especially during early days of attempting to meet regulatory standards.
    Little bit like some modern VW(?) emissions scandal I heard about recently ?
     
  9. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Technology was dictated to them, not by them. The EPA and CARB may be misguided but they are not dumb.
     
  10. npwmd2

    npwmd2 Karting

    Mar 31, 2015
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    Neal
    Although I appreciate all the technology explained, if the pump does not effect performance why has so many people or everyone removed it?
     
  11. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #11 Steve Magnusson, May 1, 2017
    Last edited: May 1, 2017
    I'll go with two reasons:

    1. The perceived effect on performance was greater than the actual effect on performance (but there is some -- driving the air pump and the obstruction of having the air injection nozzles in the exhaust ports does remove a few HP),

    2. An unwillingness to spend the $s to maintain the system -- the air injection nozzles, air injection manifolds, check valves, lines, etc. all suffer from the added heat (as does everything under the bonnet). The header heat shielding also degrades over time and falls apart/starts rattling.

    It's the same situation on air-pump equipped US 308 - most have had the system removed or disabled. Not saying that that's a good thing -- a US 246 Dino with all the emission equipment intact and in good working order would be a plus IMO (just to still have all the parts -- doesn't mean they need to be on the car when used ;)).
     
  12. 2dinos

    2dinos F1 Rookie

    Jan 13, 2007
    2,778
    When that equip is hooked up and functional, CO & HC drops like a stone. Note that there's a spec for air pump pressure. IIRC, The 308 book gives the pressure in water height which worked out to ~ 6-8 psi. I've seen crummy pumps deliver such low pressure, they can't blow past the check valves.
     
  13. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
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    So what was engineered into the system that allowed for the removal of the air pump (like with the 83 to 84 models)

    Just a better cat? Was it just that simple?
     
  14. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    83 had an air pump. 84 and up to 355 had air injection that did not require a pump. 355, 360 and 430 went back to a pump.


    All have air injection.
     
  15. TTR

    TTR F1 Veteran
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    Interesting. Have you actually measured the psi on one or more pumps or is the 6-8 psi based on math ? I'm curious because I'm currently restoring/working on two US Daytonas and attempting to make the smog systems in them complete and hopefully functional.
     
  16. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Like pretty much every rebuilt pump I have ever seen. If you are not installing new it is a waste of time and money.
     
  17. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I have measured a lot of them.
     
  18. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #18 Steve Magnusson, May 3, 2017
    Last edited: May 3, 2017
    Better injection systems (and improved cats), but also the US emission specs have changed over time. Up thru 1983, the systems were "without Lambda", and the US models had a continously-running air pump for both cold and hot operation. In 1984, with the introduction of "with Lambda", they were able to go to having a pumpless air injection system used only during cold-running (and still meet the US emission specs in place at that time), but the US kept tightening up the cold start-up/cold running emission specs so more modern models went back to having an air pump for cold start-up/cold running as Brian noted (although these tend to be electrically-driven air pumps rather than belt-driven air pumps).
     
  19. 2dinos

    2dinos F1 Rookie

    Jan 13, 2007
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    Yes. Many. I concur w Rifledriver. It has got to be new, else it's an abysmal waste of time! (IMHO) That's how I learned to dig into the WSM to find a spec. Very simple technology that really works. Interesting thing about tuning. Since the exhaust is heated, the velocity is higher and scavenging could be better. Many hi end car companies tune for this, and modification my reduce horsepower. Another important simple piece is the diverter valve. Without this, it pops on deccel. I suggest stay new on this too.
     
  20. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    And there is a catch. Finding a correctly configured diverter valve for a restoration where it is so visible as on a Daytona presents a real challenge. One reason why most restorations the air injection is disabled and just there for cosmetics. We have a specific rule about that in judging. The emission control only needs to look operable.
     
  21. dinogts

    dinogts Formula 3
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    Well, for official FCA and International Advisory Council for the Preservation of the Ferrari Automobile (IAC/PFA) judging, shouldn't U.S. spec cars start with 110 pts already (for example) before deductions versus 100 for a Euro spec cars for the reason that U.S. spec cars have additional equipment that Euro spec cars don't have?
     
  22. Dino Club Germany

    Dino Club Germany Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2008
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    #22 Dino Club Germany, May 11, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Some questions:
    Is it important to have all these labels and plates on the equipment to get full pts?
    Is anything important missing on the pictures?
    On the generator on the 2nd picture there seem to be a round sealing between both housings, is this for warranty reasons to ensure it is not opened?
    Everything turns well without any noises, can I do other functional tests?
    How much would it be worth if for sale?
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  23. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    No.

    If that doesn't work for you I suggest starting with a EU Dino to make it easier on yourself.

    In a few of the major awards complexity and difficulty of restoration is taken into account.
     
  24. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Labels there are unimportant for judging because none of them can be seen.
     
  25. swift53

    swift53 F1 Veteran
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    #25 swift53, May 11, 2017
    Last edited: May 11, 2017
    Nico, generators are meant to be opened for bearing and carbons issues, so I would not worry about seals, etc.

    You can spin it at your local electro shop (both parts) and check the charging rate.

    Worth? Try e-bay.

    Regards, Alberto
     

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