Airbus Observation - pilot opinion sought

I'm not a pilot but on CNN there was an interesting quote that works here:

Lufthansa chief pilot Juergen Raps, who has flown the A380 before, said that despite the superjumbo jet's size, it was nimble and responsive.

"If I were to compare it to driving, you would think this would be like driving a truck or a bus," he said inside the plane's cockpit. "It's like driving a Ferrari."

hmmmm, maybe you thought is what drove the pilot to think he was in a 430 making a course correction coming out of a turn.

; )

regards

ken

 

I'm not a pilot...but damn that thing is HUGE!

 

I'm just some schmoe with 50 flight hours under his belt, but yes, my heart skipped a beat too when I saw that. What were the wind conditions? I see some rudder applied as the flare approaches. In a crosswind, passenger jets will typically land with one wheel first, then the other right after, then the nose wheel - this is SOP. It looked like both wheels touched down at the same time in this case. The plane may be big enough to where it doesn't matter. But the yaw that I saw once the plane had touched down seems abnormal and FerrariChat is probably not the only place it's being discussed.

Great thread possibility for aviatorchat.com!

 

When aircraft are first being tested, this is an experimental landing technique. Usually, it is used to combat crosswinds, which are a notable factor when considering an aircraft the size of the A380. Basically, the aircraft is not on direct alignment with the runway as on a normal approach. Instead, the aircrafts line of flight intersects with the runway at some degree and then the pilot immediately corrects the path of ground-based travel. Somewhere on YouTube there are some great shots of Boeing testing the 767-200 with this type of landing.

I read the Lufthansa "Ferrari handling" comment. I seriously doubt that. However, for years, people have asked me about traveling on Concorde, and I always replied that it was like jumping from a Honda to a Porsche, so I can see the analogy. I just think that Airbus to FERRARI is a bit of a stretch.

 

I'm not a pilot and I don't play one on TV but, I just looked at the video and it looked like a typical crosswind landing. The runways at LAX are all east-west and the prevailing winds are typically from the west. The wind right now in Long Beach is from the south-southwest at maybe 5 knots. In a crosswing landing the pilot will crab the airplane with the rudder so it is going a bit sideways. As he touches down with the mains he has to kick the rudder to bring the nose back to the centerline. There is some stunning video out on the net of a Korean 747 making a landing at Kai Tak airport in Hong Kong during a strong crosswind. The thing touches down with the nose about 20 degrees off the centerline and then the pilot wrestles it around.

Cheers,
Kurt (who works for the "other" big airplane builder)

 

I am a pilot - you'll get more qualified responses on aviatorchat.com, another of Rob's sites

 

That was a lot of rudder correction for that kind of airplane.

However, the pilot did a great job. Did you notice how he came out of it right on the center line? Obviously not the first time he (or perhaps she) has stomped on the left rudder pedal to save a landing.

 

This is crosswind.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8595143022111722945

 

OK - just checked out aviatorchat.com and no one is discussing this. First let me say that any pilot worth their salt would not second guess a Pilot In Command. The important thing to understand is that the PIC detected something and corrected for it. Guessing what that something was that needed correction will probably never be made public, given the PR nature of this flight - by the way, this is not a tanker, but a double decker passenger jet on a demo flight.

The landing and subsequent roll out was uneventful, not even an incident, let alone an accident. The only follow up to this will be between the PIC and the Chief Pilot. Those findings , if any, will then be passed on to Airbus. We will never know what truly happened.

 

In most aircraft, the brakes are on (or on top of) the rudder pedals...so a hard stomp on one side of the brakes (you steer aircraft while on the ground with your two foot-brakes) will often move the rudder.

You saw the rudder move while the aircraft was on the ground...I'd guess that the pilot was applying a brake to steer the aircraft.

 

Not surprised to see this happen.

He obviously carried power through the flair and may have had difficulty adjusting for either cross winds or runway positioning. We did not get a wind check status at the time. So, this is all speculation.

Remember, too, that LAX has not yet been fully prepared for that airplane. It's also possible he encountered some softness in the runway due to the exceptional weight of the vehicle.

In addition, it takes time to get a feel for an aircraft. The PIC's training was mostly simulator, and actual feel is very different. And the PIC who took that airplane off was not the same one who landed it. So, actual time will be important for those pilots.

That's an enormous vehicle. It takes a while to garner full control.

The C5A has adjustable gear that can rotate to accommodate for cross winds, etc. This airplane does not have that capability.

LAX is spending a fortune to widen their main right runway by 70' to accommodate that airplane. LAX is only one of 15 US airports that can handle it.

Don't second guess what occurred. Large, multi-engine airplanes are challenging.

If we knew all the field conditions at the time we could comment better.

 

Now that's a big plane and it looks great.

 

If you want one, probably best to buy a used A320 to get on the dealer's list.

(My first post on AirbusChat.com! )

 

Sorry but I don't share your enthusiasm. I have a bad feeling about it and don't plan to fly in one.

The first time one goes down (It'll happen eventually), what a death toll.

French engineering, I'll have none of it, thank you.

That "Ferrari" comment by the pilot, gimme a break.

 

I thought it was a pretty normal landing. Slight deviations like that aircraft made are not unusual. At that point of the flight the pilot was still using the rudder but the aircraft has nose wheel steering for ground operations. Toe braking and differential braking is usually done on small aircraft.

There's a couple of ways to handle cross winds. One way is to crab into the wind and the transition from crab to straight down the runway is done during the flare. While the transition is being made the plane is banked towards the wind and the nose is held straight down the runway with top rudder. Then the windward main gear touches down and then the other main touches and finally the nose gear. After the pilot gets the airplane slowed down enough to use the nose gear steering he engages the nose wheel and taxies to the gate.

The other way to handle cross winds is to bank towards the wind shortly after turning final. The aircraft is held straight down the runway with top rudder. The bank is held all the way to touch down. Passengers find this unconfortable because it's like driving across a hill. Everything falls towards the low side.

I use the crab method that airlines use mainly because I don't like to fly with crossed controls and it's more confortable.

Bob Wassam

 

I'm with Bob. Let the plane "fly itself" as long as possible. In crosswinds, that means holding off on cross-controlling as long as possible. (ideally, this would normally mean waiting until you're in ground-effect, which makes life even easier...doesn't always work out that way hehe).

Anyway...that rudder looks to be moving ALOT for such a big airplane all the way down final. If it were moving that much on such a large plane, it would mean whole lot of wind.

It's hard to tell, for me anyway, how much of what appears to be the rudder moving, is, instead, relfections moving around on the tail. Looking closely, it appears that there's some reflections on the rudder that make the rudder look like it's moving (esp. in the flair), when it looks like it could be an illusion because of reflections?

Again, that's an awful lot of "banging on the rudder pedal" for such a large a/c.

Dave Cate
707,727,737 usair, fwiw

 

Upon further review...

It just doesn't look like the best landing he's ever made hehe

 

The Airbus A320 has toe-brakes: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0UBT/is_8_19/ai_n11844069

 

FWIW, there was virtually no wind at the time...
(less than 10 knots and within 30 degrees of the runway)

 

Here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHrLB_mlir4

 

I dont think the plane whatever its size is a factor, its the pilot.Watch the A380 landing in New York to see my point, smooth as glass.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/science_news/4213482.html

 

Just a couple of comments...I thought it looked like he let it get away from him for a second and then corrected it.

I also noted the wing tips flapping around an awful lot for a "smooth landing".

I assume that this has a "fly-by-wire" like all the other Airbus planes...is it possible that it won't really let you fly a slip with your wing down into the crosswind as a matter of design?

Also, is it possible that the main gear has a crabwise-tracking system to allow for crosswind correction (like a B-52) so that the pilot does not have to face the danger of dipping a wingtip too low?

Not to be too negative, but I cannot forget the incident in France where a smaller Airbus flew itself into the ground because of a glitch in the fly-by-wire and that one in NYC just after 9-11 where the planes rudder was snapped off by a sudden rudder deflection.

BTW, pilot since 1968 and owned a Citabria Taildragger for many years. This plane will teach you about crosswinds, especially in Okla City. However, as stated, I know absolutely nothing about this other than having some questions.

 

I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong here, but I think most SOPs don't rely on toe braking after touchdown. A combination of reverse thrust and auto brakes do the trick on most commercial jets.

Also, steering exclusively with the brakes in small planes is a no no. Sure, it can be done, but it's a bad habit to get into as it really shortens the life of the brakes.