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ALERT! Body and chassis 250LM from Italy with a pending lawsuit in court offered for sale

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by passioncar, Feb 7, 2019.

  1. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
    6,731
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    Thank you very much, Andrea for taking the time to translate the important documents that are so relevant and important in this case.
     
  2. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
    6,731
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
  3. 335s

    335s Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2007
    795
    SF Bay Area
    Full Name:
    T. Monma
    Posting #7 by "Miura SV" provides a link to pictures "dated" appx 1975.
    I have zero skin in this game.
    Factually care zero as to ownership concerns: to me, its ONLY the car/car remains in the photo in the link, that matters to me...

    What pic number three shows is what caught my eye-I can confidently state that my hands on experience and knowledge as to the subtle details of "P" chassis construction and car configuration of these 4 cars is quite comprehensive, as I've had my nose into one car-all the way "up and down" a couple of times for the last 10 years(appx...), as well as exposure to 0810 in the seventies....
    0812 and 0814 when at "Chinetti International," and a picture of 0816 when offered to me for sale -also in the 1970s PRIOR the its acquisition by Pierre...

    So that's the short version of my CV.....
    Enough said on that....

    There are a couple of VERY interesting things worth commenting on about a modded racing car far prior to their being worth truck loads of money:(remember, in 1973-1974/5, an LM was a $10-18,000.00 USD car, I know, I turned down 3, and when I went back to buy one for 10-15, it had been traded for another famous, famous Team car(the historical significance of which, at that time, was unknown to us all!)

    The chassis APPEARS to be MISIING a cross support piece: above the transaxle-on LMs this is WELDED to the frame, on P chassis cars: it is a BOLTED on item: it appears to be missing...
    The factory "welds" the chassis id tag to this tube-fwiw...in my experience, there is NO other place on the frame where the number is STAMPED, there are other telling "markings", but this is not important here...

    The fuel tanks: while admittedly sit in a modded rocker panel area, appear to look much more like P-car fuel tanks(the FIRST fuel tanks Ferrari welded and NOT riveted together-hence all the cracks which resulted in so many fires,
    Surtees supported this tank idiosyncracy when we asked about this prior to his passing-specifically commenting that he would have won the Targa-Florio-which he was Ist OA when he retired due to: a crack in a tank, a race subsequently won by a Porsche WSC, but, the 2nd OA car was an SP Dino(0802?))

    The fiberglass cover on the center frame spine section has NO shifter-as in an LM.
    ALL P cars have the shifter box bolted to the RIGHT of the drivers thigh on the right side of the cockpit-look at the pic. This is a fairly good detailed view of frame construction, unfortunately, the fiberglass obscures a really important part of the frame, BUT, what frame tubing IS visible: not only appears original, but "correct" for a P chassis.
    An LM chassis is SO CLOSE, that a layperson would have difficulty in distinguishing between the two... IMO...

    Additionally: the clutch! Look carefully-this is a P clutch!
    This suggests a complete "P" trans axle, of which there were precious few-while SIMILAR to an LM box, there are some significant differences internally which makes them different. Principally: the "first motion" shaft which runs directly off of the crankshafts connector. The bell housing register is therefore LIKELY to be smaller to accept the register from a 210 block, NOT a 211(275 type 213 dimensions).
    From my own experience-which allows only for opinion based on experience, ALL 275 P cars had 210 blocks(I think they made 5-6 of these as such a grouping). I cannot comment with similar certitude as to the 250 iterations, but can comment that the ONLY internal differences between the two I've observed, has been a bore increase from 73-77mm: that is all...carb changes don't apply here...

    Having just checked on Barchetta.cc: low and behold-this car IN THEB PICTES I HAVE REFERENCED FROM POST 7 was one of the LMs with a 210 block! If one looks CLOSELY, most of the cars which were real racing cars, won stuff, big histories, NOT SCCA boy racer/playboy racing cars...were 210 cars!

    To a guy like me, all the legal wrangling is just background noise...what happened to the car on the trailer in those pictures dated 1975? It would be VERY interesting to examine that pile of "stuff" should it still exist as pictured. The frame authenticity can be clarified to a degree of certainty but probably NOIT absolutely utilizing a "portable mass spec" gun. Steel alloy content and age can be determined quickly and accurately. Obvious frame mods based on crash history also are easily identified.
    The mechanical peculiarities/oddities which appear in these pics deserve some questions, as they can ONLY be attributed from Ferrari, as there simply was NO access to such parts in that era outside of GES....
    This car WAS originally made for Garage Francochamps-correct?
    There are simply too many planets which are aligned to be merely coincidental...

    Classiche certificate aside....circumstances of which I have intentionally kept ignorant so as NOT to discolor my curiosity. Those guys have resources and historical stuff which has curled my toenails, its just not available to "outsiders".
    Was the car "certed," using/with the rebuild of the frame remnants(the heart of the Ferrari according to Ferrari) and other parts in the old 1975 pics?
    If so, the car is in my mind, sort of a "special"....Crash, burned, wrecked, rebodied: big deal, its a RACING car, and likely a "special" to boot...
    If they DIDN'T, is THIS the stuff in those pics?
    Is this what's being offered up for sale????
    IF so, somebody who knows these cars down to the rivets-with NO SKIN IN THE GAME-should evaluate this pyre....

    I repeat:all the legal wrangling which started this thread, while important to a lot of people, simply is of no importance to a guy like me: I'm only interested in the car and whether its one of the last "specials"....
    Belgium got ALOT of these "specials...(Henn's 275/"GTO" '65' " car was one, as I RECALL), correct me if in error here...

    Unlike the Historian Guys-who are a huge part of our community after 60-70 years now-have a different pool of fact checking: printed docs, testimonials, old pics, etc. etc.
    Guys like me/us, we make stuff, and look at the whys, the how, the whens, the who, made from what, who had top tier access, who didn't, what was politically not realistic, what was a political imperative, financial imperatives....similar, but factually different, and occasionally at odds.

    That said, it really doesn't matter:
    It's ONLY THE CAR that matters-not how much they are worth, but what is it, and is it what it MIGHT appear to be, fellas?

    Are there more and better detailed pictures in PERIOD-and PRIOR to Police seizures?
    MORE INFO, MORE FACTS: PLEASE.....
    ciao!
     
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  4. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 19, 2004
    5,830
    SF
    Is this another case of two parties ending up with different remains of some wrecked car and each party claiming to own the actual car?

    And in this car does the claimant's "car" look more like a pile of parts than the defendant's car which has already changed hands for millons of dollars?
     
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  5. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

    Apr 5, 2010
    1,950
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    Full Name:
    Timothy Russell
    Your post reminds me why I love Ferrarichat, I mean where else could you get direct first hand information like that so thankyou. The theory is that #5899 was delivered to Scuderia Filipinetti, where Franco Sbarro was the chief mechanic and was delivered in the spec you believe it was, Tipo 210. Where things get blurred is that Biedermann crashed #5899 severely and Hans Illert is believed to have shortened the chassis to create his LM-P special with Carrera 6 bodywork. What if at that point the car was actually rebuilt using a 906 chassis and body rather than rebuilt using the originals, what if it was also separated from its Tipo 210 drivetrain when the Piper supplied 330P engine was fitted in the late 1960s. Lets not forget that Eric Stewart is supposed to have received a partly complete tubular chassis, the original engine from David Piper (it was apparently swapped for the 330P engine) and whatever remained of the Porsche bodywork. While its unclear what the original poster claims to own I have more than a few questions myself;

    - Does what the current Italian claimant own conform to what was pictured in 1977
    - Does that chassis/ transmission/ body match what was originally fitted to #5899
    - At which junction/ rebuild did those parts get removed from the original #5899 (the body and transmission could have been removed from #5899 separately at different times and reunited by Sbarro, Piper or some other party).
     
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  6. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 6, 2004
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    CH
    Very interesting and thank you to 335s for generously sharing his hard earned 'knowledge' with us here!
     
  7. 335s

    335s Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2007
    795
    SF Bay Area
    Full Name:
    T. Monma
    CORRECTION!; I double checked my notes, and have erred in my previous reference to this car!
    Senility and old age make their relentless advances....

    All yuks aside, while it was NOT originally destined for Team Belgium(Francorchamps), it WAS made for Fillipenitti...ALSO a "concessionaire",
    A quick review of the drivers and events this car was campaigned in/during the 1964 season:What is QUITE TELLING-IN MY EXPERIENCE IN THIS 'GRADE/CLASS" OF FERRARI CAR:(sorry-key was stuck)- is the racing pedigree:
    1st OA-Scarfiotti: formula 1 pilot , LeMans winner, 2 time Hillclimb Champion
    1st OA-Vacarella: formula 1 pilot, LeMans winner, Targa winner
    CRASH-Vacarella/Guichet, LeMans winners-BOTH...
    These guys were the VARSITY-period....privateer car, are you kidding me?
    urrent F! guys, 2 of whom had 1st OA LM wins IN THIS CHASSIS type?
    Interesting, huh?


    As I opined previously: this is not likely a "normal" "GT"/sports car, as were the majority of these cars, despite what people "think"
    This certainly appears to be almost a "backdoor" team car which was being put out there to win( look at GTO s/n 4293 as a perfect example of what I'm talking about)...before being quickly and quietly sold to a wealthy, hard to reach enthusiast/friend of the factory "industrialist"
    As things were done in those days...
    NOTEWORTHY: There is ONLY 1 other rt sided shifting LM that is "publicly acknowledged" as being such-most of us know who owns this car(again, a 210 car).

    The previous poster: Timmmmy, has stated out loud most of my thoughts....but not all....

    Again: lots of "political considerations" from current to all the way back then....
    I don't really care to cast stones on anybody, or their cars...
    As I said, I'm kind of really only interested in the stuff in the pic, where is it, where did it go, is that what has been certed by Classiche, etc....

    The car in the pic APPEARS to have a "906" or a semblance of a 906, on the chassis.(I'm around a works 910-while close, not exact, but close enough) This said, wile clearly there are mods visible to me/the naked on a computer image of a picture that's 40-50 years old, this doesn't change what I know, and what I SEE. The MAJORITY of that frame, is period authentic from my cheap seats in the bleachers in centerfield here...
    There are details of "330P" engines which are almost certainly unknown to the entire viewing audience short of 1-2 hand counting of fingers, so those details-while interesting, are not really pertinent, as the mounting of such a block requires more than meets the eye-again, been inside 4-liter prototype
    engines, so I actually know what I'm referencing.
    It is useful to hold some information back so as to not unduly influence to flow and timbre of the discussion-IMO.

    Pictures in period would tell an awful lot, if available in determining what was there on the trailer THEN, as to where that stuff is, or might be today, is not a question I can or ever will be able to answer...its merely that the appearance of such thoroughbred lineage deserves as careful an exam as I possible-historically speaking-what is certed is certed,after all...Not having seen the "red book", all I might be doing is telling tales out of chool, and I don't do such things...

    It's the car, fellas....
    ANY pics out there?
     
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  8. 335s

    335s Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2007
    795
    SF Bay Area
    Full Name:
    T. Monma
    Has the thread(curiosity about the truth?)"died?"
    I KNOW what I'm looking at....
    Good perspective: compare the pics in the "Red book," to the pics from the earlier postings of the pyre on the trailer from the early/nmid 1970s-look for the DETAILS....the si ne qua non...

    Ve Ri Tas.....
     
  9. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    466
    Established Classiche believers don’t need to speculate any further about history and some tubes claiming to be originals, because 5899 is Red Book-certified today and sold for 9.6 M with Ferrari’s blessing, that all mayor components – including the frame – are original.

    Ve Ri Tas ... More firsthand information here:

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  10. 4rePhill

    4rePhill F1 Veteran

    Oct 18, 2009
    7,729
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    Phill J
    So in 1989, Ferrari stated that the identity of the car in question could not be verified and confirmed, and so chassis #05899 would be officially recorded as: "destroyed", in their registry (according to the final letter in post #20), but according to post #34, it has been sold this year for 9.6M (£'s?/$'s? Euro's?) as chassis #05899, with Ferrari's blessing, and declared to be original, alive and well by Ferrari Classiche! :confused:

    Whilst this is Ferrari we're talking about, and so shouldn't really come as a surprise, how can this be? Surely once Ferrari officially recorded chassis #05899 as being "destroyed" on their registry, then that should have been an end to the life of that chassis number? :confused:
     
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  11. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

    Apr 5, 2010
    1,950
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    Timothy Russell
    Where do you get the information that Ferrari stated #5899 was destroyed, the letter to Visioli or elsewhere?
    The question here is whether Visioli's chassis which he may still own is in anyway original or real while the car currently known as #5899 is a separate entity entirely and has Ferrari Classiche approval. Visioli's chassis might well be the original chassis fitted to the original entity or something separate yet again BUT is the chassis the letters referred to. #5899 is built around what is most likely either a David Piper built chassis from 1980/81 or a more recent chassis built by Ferrari Classiche or one of their subbies.
     
  12. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    466
    #37 lgs, Mar 17, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
    No one knows what tubes Visioli had or has today. We just know that some ‘5899’ claiming tubes Visioli showed Ferrari in 1989 were not original and no permission was given for a rebuild. And 1989 Ferrari confirmed in writing that c/n 5899 will be officially registered as destroyed. Ferrari’s original lettre is translated in English in post 25 (and you posted the first like!).
     
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  13. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    466
    “... while the car currently known as #5899 is a separate entity entirely ... “ What the hell is that? Can any expert help?
     
  14. 335s

    335s Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2007
    795
    SF Bay Area
    Full Name:
    T. Monma
    My library of historical photos taken in period, during jobs, ownership, inspections, etc., numbers in the tens of thousands-having accumulated these over the last 45-50 years...
    Access is difficult: as some formats and hardware architecture have become obsolete: some machines have not been turned on in over 5 years!
    This makes recovery/retrieval arduous, at best...

    However, this topic, and the questions it poses, suggest to me its a worthy undertaking(?).
    While this might seem self serving in tone: in truth, I have no skin in this game, other than: "I know what I know," because "I was there", (hands on experience, supported by photos are difficult to refute as factual truths) and those of us who were "there", are fewer, and fewer in number, with each passing year.

    It will take some time, but I shall upload some files, in sequence, in accordance with the sequence of points which I have addressed earlier...
    Each reader may then: arrive at his own conclusion, in contrast with "statements" of 'this is how it is' from copies of personal correspondence letters, no matter how well intentioned at the time of their composition....
    This is not, nor meant to be, a disparaging, personal attack/commentary, judgment, or otherwise, towards any author/authors of personal correspondence as was posted earlier.
    Merely that: as a trained scientist, the use of 'personal correspondence' as a reference, axiom, theorem, or postulate when executing a scientific PROOF(or the dissent!)-no matter how well substantiated, intended, or even corroborated, is not an acceptable pillar of support for the proof.
    Its not my opinion, its just the way it is-or it was... ... Call me old fashioned, antiquated, out of touch...I'm OK with that...
    I do have some pretty compelling photos for my argument...film at 11...
     

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