Alfa 4C - "Without The Heart We Would Be Mere Machines"

Il dolce far niente.

 

The idiocy around this car grows. Its a 4cyl car with some interesting engineering. Life is literally too short to worry about who or when this will appear. Im about to give up. There are no shortage of great cars to own. This is just one. That plus the TopGear review of the gearbox is not impressing me.

Id prefer a manual and that is not in the selection to outfit the car. Next! One can spend a bit more and get more to be honest. I will give my dealer one more month to have something worth telling me then I move on. Its a car, not a cure for cancer or anything else of note or worth in the bigger scheme.

 

Actually, I've heard the same thing. Not all Fiat dealers will sell Alfa and even fewer the 4C.

Chevy is doing the same thing with the Corvette C7. Only 900 dealers will sell the C7 initially. A dealer gets it's allocation based on previous Corvette sales.

I seriously doubt Maserati dealers will be selling the 4C as it's intended to be a flagship or halo car of Alfa. By not selling it in Fiat dealers it's a huge SLAP in their faces. It's like saying this car is too good for you to carry so we are giving it to Maserati/Ferrari.

I'm going over to my dealer in Vegas on Friday to find out if they know anything.

 

Cue this....

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiI0cNcT29k]Wa Wa Waaa sound effect- Piano - YouTube[/ame]

 

Something of a motivation video. Interesting look at the car as it is being produced.

Alfa Romeo 4C factory (Motorsport) - YouTube

 

Sadly, this may be as close as we get to a real one.

 

According to EVO, that isn't that much of an issue because the ALFA 4C placed DEAD LAST on their ECOTY 2013 (car of the year) test.

It received the lowest possible score from every judge.

http://i.imgur.com/VnAGVU5.jpg


According to them, it fails in most areas, from engine to gearbox and the dynamics of the car are not as polished as Cayman's. They even rated a MINI JCW as a better drive.


FIAT sc..... this up again.

 

Those are the same people that gave the 4C 4.5 stars last month in their review! Very surprising that Porsche won (again) on ECOTY

How can anyone take seriously a review that puts a Mini above a Cayman and a 4C?

These reviews have really become a joke IMO!

 

Alfa would do well to outfit this car with a manual tranny. That said I'm waiting for the spider and the giulietta reacement as those will be the bread and butter cars.

 

99.99% sure that there will not be a manual version of the 4C. Main reason for this is the US market as they had to choose a transmission (to expensive to offer both on such a small production) and they thought they would not sell enough manual cars in the US.

I think they made the right choice IMO

 

I think driving enthusiasts prefer a manual. It would be a selling point for this car, its not like its a drive to the bistro type of car. Youa re going after the enthusiast driver with this machine, not the cappuchino/chick crowd.


Also from what I have read power is limited to 237 hp because fo the tranny.

Now imagine this car with 300 or 350 bhp, mercedes is already squeezing that out of the amg c class turbo 4.

If we criticaly analyse the 4c, the shape and construction materials are great. The power is relatively low, and the motor is apprently lacking in rev's /charisma.

Also and this is the concerning part, the real wet weight in the USA will be closer to 2500 lbs, compared to their euro listed dry weight(no fluids anywhere, helium in tires) of just under 2000lbs.

In context my Lotus Elise is 1920lbs with 1/2 tank of gas. Add a supercharger and weight goes to a little over 2000lbs and hp is 320 on the latest tws supercharger systems.

So I am struggling to figure where the Alafa fits in besides lookign great and being built of CF. Its not comfortable/luxurious like a cayman, or as "fast" or have as nice a motor, which will elimnate the cuppuchino bistro crowd. And it will fall flat compared to a Lotus in the hard core light weight stakes.

Maybe this tub will be great when we get the masser version wityh the 400hpo twin tubo 6
and say 2700lbs, that is if it does not spank ferrari so badly that they wont let it get built.

So yes the 4c is a great concept, a great car we wish they would build and did, but the execution is lacking in terms of the promise. Now put a350hp turbo 4 in the 4c and the game changes. You know then it will outperform acayman everywhere and is truly a special product. As ti stands now the 4c is meerly an interesting product.

 

Not according to Mr. Harris....

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnuNv77rB0Q]Alfa Romeo 4C First Drive, Road and Track. -- /CHRIS HARRIS ON CARS - YouTube[/ame]

 

I don't think that's true anymore. 10- 15 years ago, yes. Today it's a different world.

The new C7 Corvette has a manual box standard. Still, only about 25% order the car with a manual paying $1500 extra to have an auto. And, if it had a DCT instead of a slushbox, there would be even fewer asking for manuals.

Now, don't tell me that 75% of Corvette owners aren't sports car enthusiasts or the C7 isn't a "sports car".

 

Will production be limited?

 

From what I have read, the manual takep on the C7 is 5% higher than on the C6. I agree the C7 is a sportscar, but the demographic of most corvette buyers has been well weighteds to people in their late 50s to retired.

These are folks who are buying the vette for a whole host of reasons and an auto box suits their needs and aging joints, has for many many years. Its the same reason that a vette spec is two bags of golf clubs in the trunk, tells you a whole lot about who buys vettes and where they go.,, which I dont think is a 4c spec.

As to manuals over pdk. BMW offers both in the USA. On the M5 M6 neither of which are what i call really sports cars, more like fast big sedans, the manual takeup is still over 25%. For the M3 its over 40%.

That tells me if you want to also appeal to younger buyers who might also track their cars and generaly enjoy performnce driving, this demographic also likes a stick. PDK has allowed a lot of people who ordinarily wouldnt buy a sportscar to get one for running around, like most 911s do now.

Yes a PDK is faster around a track, just look at the time saved per shift it has to be. But many buy cars for driving pleasure, skills utilzation and interaction. Thes people prefer a stick. PDK is better in traffic and faster on a track. A stick is a pain communting, more fun, tactile and engaging on open roads(which are reasons to buy a sports car) and more engaging and skill demanding on a track (which is apprealing if driving skill and enjoyment are what you do at a track as opposed to racing).

Clearly a stick and PDK have advanteges and disadvantages. The majority buys pdk the majority also votes democrat, which does not mean the mnority is iorrelevant or wrong in what they like. The majority of "sportscar buyers" also buy their sportscar for reasons other than their personal untilzation of its on road performance.

I think there are enough stick sportscars sold that its worthwhile to offer the option, and if you are selling a car of tight focus and limited appeal, like the 4c offering a stick ironicaly expands the market.

Interesting that 60% of V8 dogdge challengers are stick.

There is a thread in the 430 section of somebody wanting to turn a stick 430 into a track car, why is that, the padlle is faster. PDK may suit the majority of the people the majority of the time. But 30% of the market prefers a stick for very good reasons. On aac car liek the 4c that maight well be 60% of the market. In any event its an appealing option for many, and lack of one is also a deal breaker.

 

+100
Ferrari sales of Auto vs Manual of the 430 of a good proof of a change in market perception. They would NEVER be able to sell 3,500 per year for a few years with a manual box IMO

I consider myself a driving enthusiast and I am VERY happy it's not a manual
Power is not limited by the tranny and there will be a higher powered version later. Only torque is limited by the tranny.
US weight issues are pure speculation...
It already outperforms the Cayman in most cases....
Last but not least it is much more user-friendly that an Elise from what journalists have said. It is not an almost track-only car like the Elise.

Production is limited purely because of manufacturing capabilities of the carbon tub to 3,500 per year unless I am mistaken.

 

It won't be a limited run, except for the Launch Edition, but production output will be limited to about 3500 units a year, due to technical constraints (carbon tub production), 1000 of which for Europe, because of homologation constraints (European SSTA).

 

This is not an us or them discussion. There is room for both a stick and a PDK. The numbers from BMW Vette Chrysler indicate a significant percentage of people prefer stick. If Alfa wants to sell 2000 4cs per year in the USA those 30% who are stick buyers would be foolish to ignore.

However you want to look at it, in the marketplace for most buyers a 4c will not compare to the cayman. Its 4 cyl minimalist lacking in creature comforts and at best a boutique name. Its not a comfortable drive to the bistro and capuchino car for the wife/dcotor/broker like a PDK cayamn.

The car will be bought mostly by people who understand cars and performance, stats indicate a significant percentage of those people(not a majority) like a stick. Yes they will sell 2k in year one, but after that it has to have a broader appeal, and that broadening of appeal is most likely with the performance crowd.

As to power going from 237 hp to 260 is not going to cut it. What this car needs to out- compete performance wise with the cayman is 350hp, somethign like the motor in the amg C class. A stick would be nice for some of us too.

As it is now, the 4c is intriguing, but its not a gotta have it car, at least for me. If it were 350 hp an stick, even pdk, then I woudl be figuring how to get it. I dont think I am alone.

Most months I am at the track, what I see is BMWS Loti Vettesand Porche, pretty much every one is s a stick, even though say a pdk cayman is faster.

If you look at trackdays I bet you woudl discover that 30k peopel per year regularily attend one, maybe more, its a natural pool of buyers for sportscars, it is also a pool of people whose car choice is followed by freinds etc. To get cred the 4c is going toi have to rate in that enviroemnt too, and as it sits now I dont see that happening.

The cars I see people driving, that are good on track out the box are, vettes, loti, mustang laguna seca and Gt3's or easily modifyable to be so like caymans, miata and BMWs.

There is huge potential in the 4c platform, lets hope its easily upgradeable/unlockable by consumers, or Alfa comes out with far better versions.

 

Convertible 4C has been spotted:

Alfa 4C Spider: foto spia - Alfa Romeo 4C Spider: prime foto spia su strada - 11/12

 

What's interesting is this may be one of the few cars that you can see better out the back in a spider than a coupe.

 

1) early adopters tend to buy the stick and the Z51 package but everyone at GM says auto's and plane versions will eventually become the bread and butter

2) the C7 is attracting younger buyers already. It's in direct competition with Cayman and even some 911 buyers.

But, this is really not a discussion of the Corvette. The Alfa is a very small production car. Some say it's only 1000 units a year. Given that 90% want a DCT and they have one off the shelf that works, it only makes sense they would go that way.

 

Yes the higher takeup of sticks on vettes is attributed toi the younger performance buyer, and yes the idea is that the percentage will drop back to 20% where it has been for decades. I have no gripe with the C7 by all acounts it is a great car, with very good dynamics and it offers the choice of a stick. The performance of the car will only improve with time, and even them 80% will be base AT type cars for cruising.

The alfa is planned to sell 3500 units anualy. What they did was use the motor(cast in aluminum instead of iron) and tranny from a front wheel drive alfa int he rear. That is the same idea as the celica motor in the elise. It makes a lot of sense for alfa in terms of massivlely cutting development costs,, and also explains the 6500 rpm redline. I dont know if they have manual version of the box.

All I am saying is that if they want to sell 3500 units per year for more than 2 years this car is going to need some serious upgrades, and if they have a manual tranny that works its going to broaden the appeal in the target market, just as the vette offering a stick has with the younger buyers.

Even the 991 porche which has a crappy shifting 7 speed sells 20% stick.

 

I think that may be a bit of a misunderstanding. In the review I saw, it was already faster than the cayman in its current form. Unfortunately, I don't recall the review I saw it in.

 

Alfa does not have the money to throw at this car to add a manual box for 20% (i think it would be less) of people who want one. It is not a simple swap job between a pdk and a manual box. It takes a lot of money, adds complications and possibly some weight due to the linkage needed. A lot more complicated than it seems for extremely little sales IMO

The Elise is a good example for Alfa to take (and they did) and decided they needed to make it extreme like the Elise but a little easier in terms of comfort and day to day use. All reviews agree that it is just that. They NEVER wanted to really compete with the Cayman with this car; they hope to "steal" a few sales from Porsche and that is happening for sure (I know as I am one of them)

That's the case in 3 different reviews that compared the 4C and Cayman head to head..... I think some people should read some reviews a little better (not you) before making comparisons

 

Alfa is using one of there own DCT boxes for the 4C. It's one of the reasons they can make it so cheap.

But, I don't criticize Alfa for this at all. If you look a their history since the 50's, they've done the same thing over and over and everyone respected them for it. What they do it take their mass production stuff and tweak it a bit and stick it in a small sports car. The engines and gearboxes routinely were also in sedans and sport sedans with minor modifications.

The 4c is no different. To me, that's a good thing because at over $100K, this car would have no chance.