Alfa Superflow IV at Pebble | FerrariChat

Alfa Superflow IV at Pebble

Discussion in 'Other Italian' started by HistoryBuff, Aug 22, 2013.

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  1. HistoryBuff

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    I was wondering if this stunning Pininfarina show car, which from the back looks like a Duetto, and has a glass fastback roof and glass canopy, ever was forgotten, and decrepit, i.e. a barn find, or if it always was well taken care of. I think it was restored by Steve Tillack, at least he was standing by it at Pebble. There were four of this body style, hence the "IV" but maybe only this one had the glass roof.
     
  2. F1tommy

    F1tommy F1 World Champ
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    It was in a museum for years and has always been in good condition. The wire wheels on the car now are not correct. This same chassis was used for all 4 of the body styles, this being the final body. The first body also had a glass roof.
     
  3. Boudewijn

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    #3 Boudewijn, Aug 23, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    This car, #1361.00128, originally was made with a Colli design body and finished second in the 1953 Mille Miglia with no less than Fangio as it's driver. In 1956 it reappeared with the Superflow I body. The car as Superflow IV was for sale in Denver, CO in 1961.
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  4. HistoryBuff

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    Also when I saw the car in person at Pebble Beach it seemed to have hinges for the rear part of the roof. I was wondering if the rear windscreen was detachable or the whole glass (or is it plexiglass?) roof came off in sections? So this was the car that earlier had see-through plexiglass fenders? Has it been in any auctions lately?

    Now for a theoretical question--would it be worth more if it were rebodied in the race car body style it was in when Fangio raced it? I know that's a hard thing to balance--its value as a celebrated show car or its value as a celebrated race car.
     
  5. F1tommy

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    Unless you had the original body to re attach it would lower the value. Yes this is the same car that had plexiglass fenders. I do not think the top was designed to come off, but I think you can disassemble it. This car was in the Rosso Bianco collection. By the way, it looks like they changed the wire wheels back to the correct style. I had seen a picture of the car at a southern california show with incorrect wire wheels. It looks like they were asking $40,000.00 in 1961 dollars!! Would be interesting to see how much they got for it.
     
  6. HistoryBuff

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    Well, three for sure. when I had a chance to buy it 20-30 years ago it had a open headlight body but later I found out it had been the Superfast II, Superfast IV and other configurations because Pininfarina used it as a chassis to clothe with different bodies. I wonder which body style of the Superflow was considered the best--I consider this one glass top one pretty radical.
    by the way I don't think Pininfarina could sue GM for stealing the T-top for the '68 Corvette from this car because Gordon Buehrig (sp?) patented that type of top on a prototype he built either before or during the war but I wouldn't be surprised if it was on small aircraft first. Gordon was a Cord designer.
     
  7. F1tommy

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    I prefer the second to last white spider version. It had a red interior and cowls around the seat tops and no convertible top. I have a large poster of it on my office wall. The Superfast was a pretty car other than the rear bumper(the 4 headlight version is kind of ugly also). That is a little much and ruins the rear view. The 250 Sperimentale does not have that problem since they removed those ugly bumpers.
     
  8. bitzman

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    Because over on Alfa sites they say the owner, named Herb, who crashed it in a vintage race, had the chassis rebodied so it's a racing coupe again, I have even seen it race at Monterey.

    Researcher Chris Bertshi says Alfa Romeo built eight 3000CMs; three bodied as berlinettas by Carrozzeria Colli of Milan, and one of these, stamped 1361.00126, the car that went to Juan Domingo Peròn, then President of Argentina.

    Peron wanted something special, and no time to do a one off chassis so a used 3000CM (#00126) was found at the factory, the Colli coupe body was taken off and the chassis sent over to Mario Boano in Italy, who came up with a coupe with the “split rear window”



    The aerodynamic aluminium body was painted in blue and charcoal. It deliberately aped the lines of the original Disco Volante coupe.

    Then Peron hit the bus, car was fixed by Alberto Borghi. but later auctioned. That included, according to Bertschi, not only the 3000CM but a Ghia bodied Ferrari 212 Inter (#0191EL), and eight other cars, including an Alfa 1900 CSS Touring and a Giulietta Sprint.

    Thence via public auction to Guillermo Decker who then sold it to Carlos Lostaló, a sports car driver who was known for racing his Maserati A6GCS #2010 (#2007). Another Argentine Maserati driver Roberto Mieres was also part of the ownership chain.



    Then a classified ad in Road and Track’s March 1967 issue was posted; with an Argentinean, J. M. Ahumada, advertised it through E. Newbery from Maryland . The price was $10.000.

    The next ad a few months later was in the September 3oth, 1967 issue of Competition Press. Again they called in inappropriately the "DISCO VOLANTE” and said it was “ Built for Ex-dictator Juan Peròn.” They also said it was “one of 6 produced, powered by 6-cylinder twincam 3.5-liter engine, fed through 6 Webers. 270 bhp at 6500rpm, 5-speed gearbox. Tested at 170 mph. Paintwork slightly blemished but otherwise excellent condition, $10,500. Vintage Car Store, Inc., 93 S. Broadway, Nyack, N.Y.; (914) EL 8-3800 or (212) LO 2-6048"
    It was being advertised while still in Argentina. But it was finally sold in 1968 through the Vintage Car Store to Ed Bond of Connecticut. Bond only kept it for a couple of years and in 1970 it passed to Henry Wessells III of Paoli, Pennsylvania, a name well established in the Alfa world. Henry Wessells III painted it black and ran it in vintage races until 1984. There he came a cropper at the Pittsburgh Vintage Grand Prix when he crashed into a couple of trees. The body was history. So he removed the body and sent the frame to Hall & Fowler in the UK . Wessells then asked Carrozeria Diamante (I would spell it Diomante if it’s the man who built Bizzarrinis) in Turin to build a replica of the first body that #00126 had run with, a berlinetta by Colli.

    So if Wessells still has this berlinetta on that chassis, that means the same chassis could not be under Superflow II. Or am I lost again...?

    Here's a story about it in the configuration Wessells is running
    The Three Lives of Alfa Romeo 6C 3000 CM Boano | Auto News
     
  9. Boudewijn

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    First of all, Henry Wessels III died on August 12, 2008 aged 82.
    6C 3000 serial numbers produced:

    1361.00121 history unknown, may have been discarded/demolished or maybe renumbered.

    1361.00122 history unknown, may have been discarded/demolished or maybe renumbered.

    1361.00123 drove the 1953 Mille Miglia #631 and at Le Mans 1953 #21, may have been discarded/demolished or maybe renumbered.

    1361.00124 history unknown, may have been discarded/demolished or maybe renumbered.

    1361.00125 drove the 1953 Mille Miglia #603 and at Le Mans 1953 #23, in 1954 became Zagato rebodied Spider for Bonnier. Present at the Arizona Concours d'Elegance this week.

    1361.00126 at Le Mans 1953 #22, in 1954 rebodied by Boano for Peron. Rebodied after Wessel's Pittsburgh accident with replica Colli body.

    1361.00127 started life with regular Colli body, but was very soon tranformed into Spider version. Won as Spider the 1953 Supercortemaggiore race with Fangio. This Spider is in the Alfa Romeo Museum.

    1361.00128 drove the 1953 Mille Miglia #602 and was reserve car at Le Mans 1953 #68.
    Subsequently this car received 4 different experimental Pininfarina Superflow-bodies ending as Superflow IV as shown at Pebble Beach this year.

    Any questions left over?
     
  10. DWR46

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    Boudewijn: No questions, but additions and clarifications.

    123- add Practice car for LeMans, Practice car for Nurburgring on July 11th, bad crash in practice (steering), renumbered to 127.

    124- add Mille Miglia Fangio/Sala #602, Practice car for LeMans #68, LeMans Stagnoli/Palmieri DNS (reserve car), Practice car for Supercortemaggiore at Merano, probably renumbered to 128.

    125 essentally correct, but I can add much more.

    126-add Supercortemaggiore GP practice car for Fangio/Sanesi, Mille Miglia Zehender DNS.

    127- correct

    128-correct

    I have much more including the engine numbers at each race.
     
  11. Boudewijn

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    Thanks Dyke, but I was not trying to give a complete account of the histories of the individual cars, just trying to give a view on the destiny of the different cars.
    At the same time you gave some interesting additions:

    #123 : renumbered #127 after crash of Kling in practice against a wall at the Nürburgring
    #124 : probably renumbered #128 after it's racing career
    Those renumberings were not known in the time when Simon Moore (70-ies), Henry Wessels and Ben Hendriks (80-ies) did their research on these cars.

    #125 sold in 1954 to Swedish Alfa Romeo dealer Joachim Bonnier. Seen by Henry Wessels when Spider converted by Zagato. Raced at:
    GP Sweden Kristianstad 7 August 1955 Kvarnström
    Stockholm 4 September 1955 Bonnier
    British Empire Trophy Oulton Park 14 April 1956 Wharton
    Daily Express Trophy Silverstone 5 May 1956 Bonnier
    GP Bari 22 July 1956 Bonnier
    Caracas 6 November 1956 Bonnier
    Additions Dyke?

    After Caracas the car was sold to Henry Wessels. In 1971 sold to Italy, later sold to Japan (Hayashi), finally to the USA.

    #126 owner sequence:
    - 55 Peron for free through the Argentine labor union who never paid the $43,500 (!) for the car
    - 55 after Peron was deposed in September racedriver Roberto Mieris bought the car for $15,000 at auction
    - Rodolfo Alzaga Unzue, ARG
    - Amelio Ortiz, cardealer in Buenos Aires
    - owner in Uruquay
    - 66/Nov José Ahumada, ARG
    - exported to USA through Amelio Ortiz, cardealer
    - 68/Aug Vintage Car Stores Inc.
    - 69/Jan Ed Bond
    - 69 Henry Wessels III

    #128 owner sequence:
    60- Aaron Mosko, Alfa Romeo dealer Denver
    - Howard Wignall
    - Ernie Kanzler, LA
    - Rosso Bianco collection, Aschaffenburg, Frankfurt
    - USA
    - Caballoriza Collection, USA

    Spa 1953 Crash of Sanesi in practice, SN?

    The Supercortemaggiore at Merano September 6, 1953 entry was the last official appearance of the 6C 3000 in a race.
     
  12. DWR46

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    Boudewijn-

    Here is the race history for 1361.00125:

    April 25-26, 1953 - Mille Miglia - Karl Kling/Hans Klenk - DNF(Rear Axle)
    June 10, 1953 - Le Mans(Practice)
    June 13-14, 1953 - Le Mans - Karl Kling/Fritz Riess - DNF(clutch/gearbox)
    July 22-23, 1953 - 24 Hours of Spa - Juan Fangio/Consalvo Sanesi - DNF(crash/steering)
    August 7, 1955 - Swedish Gran Prix - Jon Kvarnstrom - DNF(brakes)
    August 14, 1955
     
  13. DWR46

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    Boudewijn -

    Apologies. Accidently hit the post buttom....
    Race history for 1361.00125 Continued:

    August 14, 1955 - Karlskoga - Joakim Bonnier - 3rd Overall
    September 4, 1955 - Stockholm - Joakim Bonnier - 1st Overall
    April 14, 1956 - British Empire Trophy(Heat 3) - Ken Wharton - 6th Overall
    April 14, 1956 - British Empire Trophy(Final) - Ken Wharton - 10th Overall
    April-May 1956 - Aintree International 200 - Joakim Bonnier
    May 1956 - Silverstone Daily Express - Joakim Bonnier - 7th Overall
    1956 - Bari Grand Prix - Joakim Bonnier - DNF(clutch)
    November 1956 - Gran Prix of Venezuela - Joakim Bonnier - 5th Overall
    June 7-9, 1957 - Lime Rock SCCA National - Henry Wessells
    May 25, 1958 - Bridgehampton SCCA National - Dick Kessler - 5th in Class
    September 7, 1958 - Lime Rock Pro Race - Roger Ward - DNF(bearing)
     
  14. DWR46

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    Boudewijn -

    As for the first two cars in your list I believe they are actually:

    1359.00121 Model 3000C52, a Touring Spider

    1359.00122 Model 3000C52, a Touring Spider

    Note the corrected chassis number prefix. I believe both cars were used as practice cars for the 1953 Mille Miglia. However, only 122 had a 6C3000CM engine installed. 122 was later raced with a 1900 engine installed.
     
  15. Boudewijn

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    Dyke, thank you very much for the information you have added.

    The first 2 cars in the 1361 series were 1361.00011 and 1361.00012, both 3 liter 6 cylinders Disco Volante Touring Spiders of which the first survives in the Biscaretti Museum in Turin. The 1359 series were the "regular" 2 liter engine 4 cylinder Disco Volante Touring models of which 3 were built: 00001, 00002 and 00003, the first the Spider today in the Alfa Romeo Museum, the second, the "Fianchi Stretti" today in the Schlumpf collection of the Mulhouse Museum in France and the third, the Coupe today in the Alfa Romeo Museum.
    Thank you very much Dyke!
     

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