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Alfa's answer to the California: 8C spider

Discussion in 'California/Portofino/Roma' started by MalibuGuy, Jun 8, 2009.

  1. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,061
    Alfa's 8C spider is coming to the US. Very limited edition of 30 US cars. 0-60 in 4.4 sec and a soft folding top with rear glass panel.

    Don't know the price but I am guessing 290- 300k?
     
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  3. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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  4. agrun

    agrun Formula Junior

    May 24, 2009
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    such a deal. a full .5 slower than a california without the folding hardtop. where are you supposed to get that thing serviced anyways, with its legendary reliability
     
  5. TheMayor

    TheMayor Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    Life is more than numbers, my friends.
     
  6. TrojanHorse

    TrojanHorse Formula Junior

    Mar 1, 2005
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    And so is it full of over blown, chest thumping, "red pencil" boasts-- to be quick enough to out run a 2009 F430, a California, with less HP and significantly more heft, would need to be going downhill in a huricane.

    I seem to remember 3.9 secs, 0-100 kph, as the time claimed for the 430, too. If that's what the factory claims for its "new new" toy, it'll be interesting to see what really shows when stock, fully loaded, big butt red boats get tested by independents like Sport/Auto and Evo etc under actual conditions.

    Btw: Someone please explain the physics behind how a heavier, less aero car with less power can possibly go "faster"?

    (As example: No one has gotten anywhere near the GTR claimed times at NRing--not even the best test drivers known to run the Ring regularly. In fact, indepdendent times have been way off. Why? Because the factory was the tester originally, and those that know, know it probably wasn't a "stock car" on stock tires)
     
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  8. anunakki

    anunakki Five Time F1 World Champ
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    I cant imagine anyone who buys these cars are concerned about 0-60 times...I sure am not. Thats for high school kids playing armchair racer.

    Ferraris and the 8C are pieces of Italian craftsmanship. They are more than their statistics. If someone really wanted to be the fastest guy on the track they would not be buying a Ferrari or the Alfa.

    The 8C is one of the most beautiful pieces of hand crafted art in the automotive world and worth every penny.
     
  9. bgck13

    bgck13 Formula Junior

    Feb 7, 2007
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    I saw one of these this past weekend...it was part of the collection I mentioned in the 333SP thread.. I like it a lot.
     
  10. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,061
    I think that manufacturors performance figures are pretty accurate. But you make a good point about the other variables such as weather tires driver etc that effect the results.

    As far as explaining how the Cali can be as fast as it is:

    Yes it is heavier- but the engine has greater low end torque and the shifts are faster.

    Worse Aero? No, the Cali has better Aero than most of the other F models.

    Looking at lap times at various tracks driven by independents, can give some useful information about how one car compares to another.
     
  11. VisualHomage

    VisualHomage F1 Veteran

    Aug 30, 2006
    5,579
    SoCal
    Sorry for taking the thread farther off-topic but I must rebut this post ^^^

    In due respect, friend, that is a fallacy about the Nur lapped GT-R not being a factory standard issue. This argument is parroted around so many other car forums as to be tired.

    Suzuki-san has driven the R35 for thousands of laps; there is video evidence, as well as Porsche press representative attendance as eyewitness to the 7:29 lap. Alas, these are publicity stunts, not representative of what anyone who buys one will ever accomplish.

    As well, the R35 GT-R must be driven much differently than a traditional RWD car. The ATTESA-ETS-Pro system requires you drive the car in some cases counter-intuitively to what is typically practiced; where you feel you should back off, the R35 requires you act more aggressively to the limit of what is considered advisable.

    The benchmarks set on the Nurburgring, moreover, are what can stand as a potential, not an everyday experience, nor even that experience of a seasoned driver unfamiliar with a certain car's dynamics.

    Furthermore, many seasoned professionals have not been able to reproduce the cited factory benchmarks for the 997tt either. So please heed the possible double-standards when cherry-picking a single manufacturer ;)

    Peace :)
     
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  13. VisualHomage

    VisualHomage F1 Veteran

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    I agree. 0-60 times can be more an added bonus than an absolute factor in determining the desire for a car, particularly a Ferrari or Alfa Romeo, Maserati, etc...

    If 0-60 were so important, then everyone owning a Ferrari made before the mid to late 1990s should all sell them for an LS1 Camaro.
     
  14. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,061
    For me 0-60 gives you an idea of the driving experience. So I do place importance on this.

    I agree that judging a car by this parameter alone, especially when it is a matter of a few tenths around the 4 second mark, does not give you the complete story of a car. How a car takes turns ,brakes, rides the road, and sings or doesn't matters more.
     
  15. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,061
    #12 MalibuGuy, Jun 9, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2009
    ......................................Alfa 8C ................... Alfa 8C Spider........ California.................. F430 Spider
    Displacement....................4,690cc .................... 4,690cc.................4,300cc........................ 4,300cc
    Horsepower......................450 BHP..................... 450BHP................ 460 BHP.......................... 483 BHP
    BHP/Liter.........................95.93.......................... 95.93 .................106.98..............................112.3
    Torque Max......................345 Ft-Lb (4,750)........345 Ft-Lb(4,750)..... 357 Ft.-Lb (5,000).........343 Ft.-Lb(5,250)
    Coefficient of Drag ........... ? .............................. ?................... 0.32 (Top-Up).................?
    Dry Curb Weight.................1,585.......................... ? ................... 1,734...........................1,520
    Fuel Consumption................14MPG ....................... ? .................. 16 MPG ........................13MPG
     
  16. agrun

    agrun Formula Junior

    May 24, 2009
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    thanks malibu fir helping us along on the #s debate. while numbers aren't everything, let's face it, the #s for unique, beautiful gems like these matter. they are sports cars that come with bragging rights. its just fun. the alpha is stunning but for me, i would rather buy the california for the weekends and with the extra 120k+ savings, buy a year old 997 as a daily driver and use the leftover $ for a trip to paris
     
  17. anunakki

    anunakki Five Time F1 World Champ
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    not to be argumentative ...but hey its the internet !

    I dont know many people that buy these cars that know their stats...I didnt look up my F355s 0-60 before I bought it (and I still dont know them !). I also asked a couple friends and they have no cue what their cars stats are.

    For the most part these cars are bought by people that lust after the looks, heritage, workmanship and accept that while the performance might not be *best* it is certainly *good enough*. On the street the only people that know a tricked out mustang can blow a 430 away are armchair magazine racers. most people will always think the Ferrari is faster...

    The bragging rights come with being able to pony up $300k. I doubt any Ferrari owner is going to feel 'dissed' if some tricked out mustang can beat them stoplight to stoplight. I know I wouldnt. Besides I would feel embarassed for the driver that feels it necessary to drag an 8C.

    Finally...any car that can hit 60 in under 5 seconds is fast enough...at that point the differences are just silly.

    Keep in mind this is coming from a guy that owned a tricked out viper so Im no stranger to bragging rights...
     
  18. TrojanHorse

    TrojanHorse Formula Junior

    Mar 1, 2005
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    As noted, my point was about claims by manufacturers, not necessarily any particular car. The GTR was just a current example--and to repeat, from all I've been able to learn, no other reputable professional driver, many with years and years of N Ring experience in numerous makes, has been able to come close to duplicating the "official GTR" time.

    That suggests to me that either the driver of the GTR on that one lap that one day was on the greatest drive of his life--and better by a substantial margin than any other driver in the world with this car, or more logically, that the car was likely not completely "stock". By the way, as far as I know, the GTR has not run "another" such factory lap since. As for tired rumours, I didn't start and aren't parroting them, only suggesting that certain claims need to be "independently" reviewed whether it be a GTR or 977tt.

    It remains my point about the California. I continue to "read" in posts or in articles how "fast/quick" it is--yet no one seems to have tested it independently.

    I've seen and been in one. It feels nice, its fast, but in my opinion, NOT as quick as a 430 coupe. It is definitely heavier and not as quick when driven on twisty roads. But to be clear, that doesn't make the Cali not a fun, desirable car. For those that like its features and styling, great. (To be honest, I still happen to believe its a marginal looking boulevard cruiser, not a red blooded canyon crasher but that's another story).

    What's important to repeat here is that I've tired of all the "unsubstantiated claims", esp by manufacturers clearly trying to "market" their cars. They provide a test car for teaser articles in car rags, and put out stats which claim that it "did so and so" when tested. Who saw it, who actually tested it, against what?

    Physics is a precise science. Actual, ultimate speed, quickness and ability of any car is largely decided by its laws. Heavier, and thus a car with less power to weight ratio is very important--maybe the most in straightline times. There are obviously other factors--many quite complex--and of course, issues just with human ability/error.

    But to simply "say" the Cali is as quick as a F430 in printed liturature and "reports" suggests discussion without verification.

    And trust me, Ferrari is NOT above making claims to enhance the marketing of their new model, esp since the 430 is now no longer in production and they cannot afford not to have the Cali succeed in this economic environment.

    Take this thought and run with it---weight, shift speed, a few hp are also the major differences between the Scud and the F430. The weight differencial is a few hundred pounds (assuming carbon ceramics on both models). The HP difference is less than 10%. The shift speed is quicker but the actual effect of 60 ms versus 150 ms is quite minor in any run to 100--in part because only two shifts need to be made at full throttle.

    The delta on differences between the Cali and F430 are actually reasonably similar.

    So why does everyone "know" the Scud is quicker than its sibbling? (which it is by the way based on my experience) I'd suggest its because everyone believes it MUST BE based on physics and "feel"--and because of the "claims" made throughout the marketing campaigns.

    The same perspective seems logical to me when comparing stats between the Cali and F430--except this time the "factory" suggests they are equal.

    As many have said, no one should buy any car based soley on its "claimed numbers"--and I'm the first in line to say there is much much more to them than just the actual straight line quickness. Its surely also about style to pedigree to feeling to handling to overall craftmanship.

    But, I'd also suggest we not blindly "repeat" factory and marketing claims without thinking them through. And in the case of the California, I think independent tests--whenever they are actually done--will prove it to be less than the claims that are now being thrown blindly about.
     
  19. VisualHomage

    VisualHomage F1 Veteran

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    Friend, you're ignoring my post's content. It was a factory car. The position you are taking supports the fallacy. It was stock. There is proof it was stock. As well, the R35 ran several such laps, not just one. It ran laps within tenths of seconds of other laps, and they simply published the best one. Again, Porsche's claimed Nur lap for the tt times have not been reproduced by other drivers either. Same for the CTS-V and ZR1. Factory test drivers drive these cars for hundreds of laps, if not thousands, when R&D'ing the cars. R&D cycles are in years, not in weeks or days. If I've driven one particular car for years on the Nurburgring, several laps every week for 4 years, and you have only a handful of times, I'm going to beat you.
     
  20. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
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    #17 MalibuGuy, Jun 10, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2009
    Ferrari states that the California will do 0-100Km/H in just under 4 sec.

    Ferrari states that the F430 spider will do 0-100Km/H in 4.1 sec.

    Some claim that Ferrari's numbers can't be trusted. That the California must be slower than the F430 spider.

    Why would Ferrari post fictitous times? I would think that car reviewers would have a field day exposing this?
     
  21. anunakki

    anunakki Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Trouble maker
     
  22. VisualHomage

    VisualHomage F1 Veteran

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    you know it baby ;)
     
  23. JM4re

    JM4re Formula Junior

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    You should tell Napolis that he got screwed.

    Seriously, though, I don't think Alfa gave the California a moment's consideration when developing the Spider 8C.
    Sorta apples to oranges.
     
  24. mercedesbenze55amg

    mercedesbenze55amg Formula Junior

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    Serviced at Ferrari Maserati dealer, as for reliability its Ferrari Maserati reliability
     
  25. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,061
    First folks say that the California must be slower than the F430 spider because of their personal analysis of the numbers ie weight horsepower. Then they say that they can't trust Ferrari's numbers. But wait- didn't they just use Ferrari's numbers about weight and horsepower to reach their conclusions?

    Then they say that it doesn't matter if one car is slightly faster than another. They say that most people who own exotics don't care about the performance numbers and don't even know what those numbers are.

    Then people say that Lap times aren't accurate and don't mean anything.

    If you truly feel that way, then why all the fuss over disputing the California's 0-60 times or other performance numbers!!!!

    They don't really matter that much.
     
  26. red360CS

    red360CS Karting

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    #23 red360CS, Jun 11, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2009
    We just ran some tests at the track. We timed the california at 3.8 seconds from 0-60, and 8.3 seconds from 0-100. From a standing start it was faster than a 430 we compared it to, but in a rolling start, the 430 was faster. The launch control helped the california quite a bit.
     
  27. TheMayor

    TheMayor Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    I believe the numbers. It's not just the power to weight that's important. It's how it puts the power down that counts.

    NOW.... the new F450 must be a killer using the same technology.
     
  28. MacGeek

    MacGeek Formula Junior

    Oct 4, 2007
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    I drove it a few days ago, on Alfa's Balocco test track, with lead engineer Mr. Domenico Martino riding shotgun. I loved it.

    What's the source for the 30 US cars? I thought it would be a much higher number.

    As for the price, I think 300k would be a good guess, it's consistent with how much it costs here.
     

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