But you're completely ignoring why PP is not comparable. Batteries are near their end of development potential (the tech is over 40 years old, and development evolved rapidly in the last 20 years). Increasing their specific energy will render them unstable and incredibly dangerous. Lithium batteries have been developing for a very long time. It is said nothing develops as fast when 2 or more countries are enveloped in a war. Currently that ''war'' is happening between phone/laptop/car (and so on) manufacturers: Incredible trillion dollar companies, all wanting the best battery life. Any improvements made are minuscule, on all fronts (energy output, weight, durability). Lithium batteries are incredible for their output and relative safety. But poke a hole in any lithium battery. See what happens. Look at cars like Tesla, who have around 9000 of such batteries in there. Any serious accident the fire department has to come. Scrapyards do not accept EV's until at least a week after their accident because they catch fire so often, days after being extinguished, all on their own. It's quite simply impossible to increase the output of a battery that much more. Unless we're increasing the risk significantly. And good luck pushing that through regulations, or find anyone dumb enough to race such vehicles. Let alone drive in public (which it won't be allowed). What you're being told (''they're working on it'' and ''it's just around the corner'') is absolute ******** told to you by fantasists. The only way you get significantly more range is to simply increase amount of batteries carried or reduce output. ****, even a Tesla has driven 600 miles on a single charge. It was the model with the most batteries. Caveat? it took 32 hours and the average speed was 18 miles an hour. That battery packed weighed 500+ KG. I'm sure someone with the will and energy can calculate how big a battery has to be to drive 200 miles (gp distance) at an average speed of around 125 mph (give or take the average speed for a current GP race), taking in the factor of how more quickly energy depletes the harder it's used (that figure is astonishing). A stripped out race version of the Tesla model S p100d overheated and depleted it's battery in 1 outlap and half a lap at speed. We best get used to extremely short races I guess. Or very, very slow ones.
Your doubts about the future of electric power have to be addressed, of course, but there is an enormous interests in solving the bugbears. It cannot have escaped to you that almost any reputable car maker is "working on it" and intents to have electric cars in its range first, and be ready when ICE is banned. In Europe at least, and China (strangely for a country criticised as a big polluter), legislation is afoot to ban ICE in concentrated urban areas progressively, and ultimately everywhere. I am pretty sure the scientists must have told the politicians this will be substainable, and not just a pipe dream. Re.batteries; their weight and volume are still problems, but already some designers think about making the battery pack as part of the structure, and not an added component in vehicles - a stress-bearing battery, if you like. Energy storage will make p^ogress, I am sure, just like quick charging, contactless charging, etc .... Don't you have any faith in technology ?
I watched one race of Formula E simply because it went through my former hometown of Zurich. It is a non event without the engine sound. It felt like a meeting of engineering nerds not a race. No, without combustion engines F1 is over. I really mean that.
I have faith in technology. But you can't bend the laws of physics and thermodynamics and so on. Increasing the energy density, whilst possible, would make it wholly unstable. And burn hotter than thermite (2500c+). At a rapid rate. Simply from a single battery pack splitting and it coming into contact with air. Imagine 20 cars driving around in a track, 20 high speed bombs. It's not possible. As for cities banning ICE cars, yes I'm still questioning their sustainability. I don't really trust most governments to do things correctly. See Diesel is great (20 years ago till very recently, every must drive a diesel!). Now they're getting banned at a huge rate. And that was also the governments meddling.
Well, you are against electric cars and you can find plenty of faults with them. It's OK, I have to respect that. It's your personal choice. I guess there will always be ICE fans, just like there are steam fans, horse carriage fans, etc... Personally, I am interested in reducing pollution in everyday life, and electric cars are one solution. So, for me any progress in promoting, researching and developing electric cars are very interesting. F1 could be a good way doing just that. Re. Diesel, I have been a big fan of diesel for years, and I was a pioneer bringing Diesel cars toLondon. I had to import them from Belgium in the 60s; left-hand drive too. Petrol station had no diesel pumps then, and I had to go to taxi garages to refuel, or truck stops on the motorways! The Diesel engine is very fuel efficient compared to petrol, but the it pollutes more. That's a fact. Of course, there are people who don't care one hoot about pollution, energy waste, cancer risks and so on. Sorry, but I am not among them. I live a frugal life, don't drink alcohol, don't smoke, etc ...
I'm not against them. I just don't think they're the ''green machines'' idea some people (unrealistically) have been told it is. It's far from it. I see a use for them, and if people want to drive them, fine. But the whole movement right now of outright banning petrol cars is absolutely wrong. IMO all heavy transport should be EV, with a generator as back up for longer distances. There is a big shift coming with working from home becoming much more popular than ever, fewer people will use cars. Fewer young people are buying cars, too. So naturally, pollution and use will go down anyways. Forcing people to drive EV and manufacturers to make EV's, that are no cleaner than current petrol engines, is ludicrous and poorly researched.
You make some good points. Here a few of my thoughts: - I'm actually all for the hybrid engines we currently have as I think it makes perfect sense to use electric propulsion during the turbo lag or out of corners (like the Ferrari La Ferrari does). This is IMHO brilliant engineering. - Yes, Formula E is not only boring to watch (at least for a petrol head like me) but a fallacy in the sense that the electric energy has to come from somewhere. Nuclear power station? Coal power station? - There were some attempts at honest electric "racing" with solar powered vehicles. While honest they were even more boring to watch. Electric vehicles are the future, no doubt. But that doesn't solve the pollution problem as the energy has to come from somewhere and water dams, wind turbines and solar panels are not nearly enough to get us there. I suppose the bigger question/debate might be: Is it politically correct to still adore/promote combustion engine based racing in our time? You know what my answer is, but I'm not an advocate of PC to begin with
When you include the carbon footprint of manufacturing, electric cars use up all their so-called pollution advantages. The real problem is the human population volume. That is where the traffic and pollution come from.
I'd even add: younger generations are no longer "car mad" as we were in our youth. Yesterday, as we saw one passing by, I told to my 9 year old nephew a bit more about the rich competition history of the Lancia Delta Integrale. He really couldn't care less, and he's not the only one - the youngsters really don't care like we did.
I don't mind hybrid F1, to a certain degree. What we've got now is ludicrously expensive, hard to understand and defeating the point of sprint racing: It's a 24 hour race split up. Mercedes uses over a 100 engines per seasons on the test beds alone, and reliability test them to death. I'm sure Ferrari is near or at that figure. Renault can't be far behind. Might as well stick them in the racing cars and allow for a 1 engine per weekend type deal....At the very least, drivers would push their engines far harder and not everything would be about managing. But since that's not being done....what was wrong with the simplified hybrid we had pre 2014? Just add a larger battery so that it could be used for longer. No complicated turbos but commercially available ones (like Indycar does...their turbo's are 2 grand each! Not a ludicrous 100K+). Stick 2 of them on, Allow proper boosting and such, the noise would improve, the racing would improve.... Then just trim the wings off a bit, make them smaller, get rid of the incredible amount of extra aero (clever lot but stupidly expensive and cars can't follow each other). No one would really complain about the noise anymore. Few would complain about the ugly halo. Few would complain about anything, really. Why? Because the racing would be great. With the extra power, fewer aero, the cars would come alive. They'd be ludicrously fast. And we'd see the drivers work hard. It would be brilliant. And still be hybrid.
Keep it in Pike’s peak cars that no one watches and leave our petrol driven monsters and grid girls alone? Hehehehe
You’d hate me then William, I use as much resource as I want too..... I don’t sort my rubbish into recycling, it all goes into the big general bin for the dustmen, and if I fill it up, I take the overflow and put it in the council litter bins so they can collect it easier, as they won’t give us a big enough bin I won’t buy a car that’s under 2 litres, and that low limit is for the mrs purely because she sometimes pays for her own fuel and I can’t be bothered to listen to her moaning about the price of diesel, or petrol, or whatever it is that hers runs on. I pay for 90% of her fuel, so I don’t give a damn I refuse a smart meter, as I have no interest in reducing my use of power, I pay for what I use, if it’s a lot, so what? At the supermarket, I use as many bags as I like, I have NEVER taken my own bags in, how ridiculous that must be to actually try to save 5pence or whatever they cost...... and some poor kid in China gets the sack from making the bags cos the commies here wont use enough of them In the rangie, the stop/start button is the first button pressed after the starter..... I’m pleased to say I have never ever ever let that stupid damaging system interfere with my ability to smash the loud pedal to the floor. I never ever ever drive anywhere slowly unless the traffic is bumper to bumper, and the transmission is always in manual, or in the sport settings of automatics. Comfort, eco, or any other soft, soppy mode is for wimps! Hehehehehe I have never ever questioned the consumption figure of any car I’ve owned, I simply don’t care. I fill the cars up when they are empty, I couldn’t care less about running costs, never have. The day I start being some kind of eco warrior is the day to question whether some foreign power has infiltrated and let loose some kind of drug to **** with our minds....
Electric vehicles have zero pollution at the point of use, which is mostly in urban areas. No other source of energy can beat that! Clean air is a priority for me. Eliminating CO2 and NOX from our cities would be a major step forward in quality of life, and solve many problems. Producing electricity can be made more ecologically friendly with renewable energies located in remote areas. Lithium extraction only exists in a few isolated places. The battery industry can be also located in remote areas, as well as battery disposal. .But I can understand that some people are reluctant to embrasse clean energy.
If you're so obsessed with clean air....why live in a city at all? Look up disposing of these batteries. It's a big problem. Petrol engines are incredibly clean these days. I wouldn't worry all that much.
Each year for the TT Zero many fans of all ages disappear to the shops or bars and re-emerge trackside when the petrol Supersports are back on. After the race sessions they then attend a noisy live concert to wind down... Zero is a nice electric experiment, and they are quick enough, but not a big ticket spectator draw
This might sound strange but I'd prefer to watch the drivers doing an 800 metre hurdles or some track and field event on their legs rather watch electric F1. Re the poster who mentioned the integrale, here in London I think it's 2021 when all of London will be 20 mph - coupled with all the new speed restrictions, traffic lights, congestion charges, old car charge on top of that, parking fees and restrictions, it's very different to the times when the Integrale was introduced - back then you could park your car on the Kings Road. Don't think the kids of today have the vision of the "open road" as we did when their age, and before we mention going on the track, I was losing bits off my 575 just going over speed bumps let alone taking it to the track lol. We live in one of these supposed well to do apartments in Kew in London, and looking at the streets, there's possibly 8 charging points to charge electric cars - and probably 400 apartments within a quarter mile radius. Quick look at the car park and all the cars are combustion with one lonely Tesla. And I'm not going to dangle an extension cord from my balcony. Best, Sammy
I prefer to drive a mechanical beast that eats the air in the sky and sucks it out the lungs of babies. A well made machine is a work of art, it reflects our intellect's power...expressed by our brains and our hands...unassisted. The internal combustion engine has given us enormous freedoms of movement and thought.
We are an increasingly urbanised civiliation, in case you haven't noticed. Most of us are living in concentrated areas, but we don't have to die from the air pollution that's slowly killing us. Concentration of CO2 and NOX is what cause most ailments, from respirator problems, cardio-vascular issue and cancer, etc .... Manking is not that stupid that it can ignore the problem when solutions are at hand, although some people think we should. Energy production and lithum disposal can be achieved safely far from populated areas where they would only affect few people. Anyway, I am not selling you an idea, just explaining why for people like me, F1 exploring other venues than the noisy and polluting ICE is bloody exiting. Electric F1, if it arrives one day, may lose fans live you and people caught in a time warp, but other folks may well get exited by clean power, for a change. Electric is just part of a package of modernisations the world goes through . I would be very surprised if F1 escapes that change.
To be fair to your nephew, I'm not sure I would have weathered a spontaneous lecture on "the rich competition history of the Lancia Delta Integrale" without the eyes glazing over when I was 9 either.
Id watch it, there again I'am a big fan of Elon Musk, also I have driven a Tesla model S, (not a massive fan of it looks wise) but I was totally impressed with it very impressive performance wise. I'd say you'd have to have your head buried in the sand, not to think things will move towards electric powered vehicles. As regards F1 I agree with T12 andreas post #54. Its quite sicking to read one poster on here that has total scant disregard for anything but his own polluting self indulgence, it's embarrassing to say the least.
