Alloy or Steel Body on 330 LMB?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by miurasv, Nov 13, 2017.

  1. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    In the book Gentleman Jack: The Official Biography of Jack Sears it is stated that the 330 LMB Sears and Mike Salmon raced at Le Mans in 1963, which was 4725SA, was partially steel bodied. I presume that meant that the doors, bonnet and boot were alloy and the rest steel???

    See link here where there is the extract from the book: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-8BJT5-k1kMC&pg=PA69&lpg=PA69&dq=ferrari+3673sa&source=bl&ots=illtt2-kio&sig=iZtrZgFk5Z-AdsRNhcR0hcR6o_U&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2pwOULeqMYLU0QXBgoDICw&ved=0CEgQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=ferrari%203673sa&f=false

    Can anyone confirm if that was actually the case and also if the other 330 LMBs were also steel bodied? Thanks in advance for any replies.


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  2. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Steve,

    I checked the C&SC article by Doug Nye from July '87 where he notes it had a "trimmed interior" and was "the heaviest car" at Le Mans '63 with "production style bodywork", Bluemel/ Pourret discuss all the 330LM's in their 250GTO book but again offer no information as to whether or not #4725SA had alloy bodywork.
    Cheers
    Tim
     
  3. DWR46

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    4453 is ALL aluminum. However, the cars originally did have "trimmed interiors" with some carpet, vinyl and leather. The headliner was a piece of felt glued right to the roof (looks terrible).
     
  4. miurasv

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    #4 miurasv, Nov 14, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
    Thank you, Timothy and Dyke.

    Dyke: Do you remember if 4453 has a Watts Linkage?
     
  5. Timmmmmmmmmmy

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  6. Boudewijn

    Boudewijn Moderator
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    4725SA is RHD. This is 4381SA.
     
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  8. DWR46

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    Steve: Yes, 4453 has Watts Linkage. The suspension is standard GTO with different spring rates at the rear..
     
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  9. miurasv

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    #8 miurasv, Nov 14, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
    Thank you, Dyke. Would you also know if 4561SA has Watts Linkage? I ask as 4561SA is said to have a SuperAmerica chassis, not a GTO esque racing chassis and I'm wondering if you can add any information to the specifications of it???? It was sold as a road car, not a racing car, to Michel Paul-Cavallier as I'm sure you know. Apologies for picking your brains so much.
     
  10. DWR46

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    Steve,

    I do not have the build sheets for 4561 so I cannot say for sure.
     
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  11. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Good point batman, was searching for information and went a little off reservation. Sorry/ thanks
     
  12. Timmmmmmmmmmy

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  13. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Bluemel/ Pourret state "Five of the seven 4 litre berlinetta were fitted with a 4 speed plus reverse non synchromesh gearbox that was particular to these cars. It drove through a single-plate clutch assembly, as on the 250GTO, to the same differential assembly in the rear axle, with a Watts linkage again provided for lateral location. Chassis #4561SA was fitted with a standard 5 speed synchromesh 250GTO gearbox and 4619SA had a four speed synchromesh gearbox".......Perhaps not conclusive but enough?.....
     
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  15. DWR46

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    Timmy: The Rear Axle on the 330LM is NOT the same as a GTO. It is a Type 574, designed especially for these cars. It does look similar externally, but is uprated internally for the torque of the four liter engine.
     
  16. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    All good, that was a direct quote from Bluemel/ Pourret and I have no way of judging their accuracy, that's why its good to have 1st hand info.
     
  17. miurasv

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    #15 miurasv, Nov 18, 2017 at 1:09 AM
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017 at 1:18 AM
    Anthony Pritchard's 250 GTO book, which also covers the 4 litre 330 LM and 330 LMB cars, states that 4725SA had a similar body to the other 330LMBs, but was somewhat heavier because of the more extensive use of steel panelling. He stated that it had a 5 sped gearbox, but Jack Sears who raced the car to 5th OA and a class win at Le Mans 1963 with Mike Salmon says on the same page of the book that it had a 4 speed gearbox.

    Pritchard's book also states that 330 LMB 4453SA has a 5 speed gearbox, but we now know that is not the case from Dyke. He (AP) also stated that 330 LMB 4619SA was timed at 300 Km/H (186.4 mph) down the Mulsanne Straight at the April '63 LM Test driven by Parkes. Other sources state that Parkes used 330 LMB 4381SA in the April 1963 LM Test to achieve the 300 Km/H speed, which is probably correct as this car is stated to have a 5 speed gearbox in Pritchard's book and Talacrest's web site, who have sold the car in the past, which could explain why it had a higher top speed than the other 330 LMBs. 4725SA is said to have been timed at 168 mph down the Mulsanne Straight.
     
  18. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    Anthony Pritchard's 250 GTO book, which also covers the 4 litre 330 LM and 330 LMB cars, states that 4725SA had a similar body to the other 330LMBs, but was somewhat heavier because of the more extensive use of steel panelling. He stated that it had a 5 sped gearbox, but Jack Sears who raced the car to 5th OA and a class win at Le Mans 1963 with Mike Salmon says on the same page of the book that it had a 4 speed gearbox.

    Pritchard's book also states that 330 LMB 4453SA has a 5 speed gearbox, but we now know that is not the case from Dyke. Pritchard and Bluemel's 250 GTO book stated that 330 LMB 4619SA was timed at 300 Km/H (186.4 mph) down the Mulsanne Straight at the April '63 LM Test driven by Parkes. Other sources state that Parkes used 330 LMB 4381SA in the April 1963 LM Test to achieve the 300 Km/H speed, which is probably correct as this car is stated to have a 5 speed gearbox in Pritchard's book and Talacrest's web site, who have sold the car in the past, which could explain why it had a higher top speed than the other 330 LMBs. 4725SA is said to have been timed at 168 mph down the Mulsanne Straight.
     
  19. DWR46

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    Steve: Let's try to clear up some of this. Where it is my "opinion", I will say so:

    1. I believe all the 330 LM "Lusso styled" cars were originally built with the four-speed non-synchro gearboxes. The existing GTO five- speed gearbox was not strong enough for the 4-liter torque.

    2. Both the four-speed and the five-speed gearboxes have 1 to 1 ratios in top gear, therefore they have no effect on the potential top speed of the car.

    3. 4453 was the first car to exceed 300 Km/H at LeMans.

    4. I believe that 4619 was NOT involved in any LeMans testing. I had three carburetors and that will definitely limit top end power.

    5. I believe that the most likely car for the LeMans test was 4381.
     
  20. miurasv

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    #18 miurasv, Nov 19, 2017 at 5:59 AM
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2017 at 6:05 AM
    Thanks, Dyke. It must be a typo on Talacrest's web site that 4381SA has a 5 speed gearbox. Both Rick Cole and Ferrari Beverly Hills state it has a 4 speed gearbox. 4381SA has now lost the airbox it had which may have been removed for the Classiche Certification.

    Ferrari still used the 5 Speed 250 GTO Synchromesh gearbox for 4 litre 4561SA, which was probably the only one of these cars which got a 5 speed gearbox for use with the 4 litre engine. I wonder if they beefed it up in any way to handle the extra torque of the 4 litre engine?


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  21. DWR46

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    Steve: What factory documents exist that prove 4561 was built with the five-speed gearbox? I would like to see a copy. I do not have Build Sheets for this car.
     
  22. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

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    4 vs 5 speed transmission, it's been stated both transmission the top gear was 1:1, not a lower overdrive ratio... what RPM should the engine turn to reach 300 kph... is this RPM in the realm of the 4,0 engines running gearing 1:1... an overdrive transmission in 5th gear would demand more power at the lower RPM vs a transmission running a 1:1 would seem to run more free and eliminate a 5 speed overdrive transmission from reaching 300kph
     
  23. miurasv

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    #21 miurasv, Nov 19, 2017 at 7:07 PM
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2017 at 7:17 PM
    I haven't seen any factory documents relating to 4561SA, Dyke. I am just taking information that seems to be generally accepted in books which of course could well be wrong.

    Has anyone seen any factory documents for 4561SA? Did it originally have a 4 speed non synchromesh gearbox? Is this car a 330 LM or a 400 SuperAmerica with a GTO body? What tipo is the chassis?
     
  24. DWR46

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    Cheesey: Factory gear charts dated March 9, 1962 show the cars with either a 4 or 5 speed gearbox (both are 1.00 to 1 in top gear), 9x32 axle ratio using 7,500 rpm on Dunlop 7.00 x 15 tires (they made that size back then) are geared for 307 Km/H. As to the rev range of the 330LM motor, I will let you know in about 6 weeks, as we plan to have the motor from 4453 on the dyno. The camshaft timing is normal Tipo 130, so it should power peak in the 7,500-7,800 rpm range.
     
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  25. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

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    thanks for clearing a lot of misunderstanding about what 5th was back in the day at Ferrari, the common association with a current 5 speed that top gear is overdrive...which many writers have assumed in their descriptions
     
  26. Boudewijn

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    Michael Lynch described the 4 liter prototypes in his 1978 article in Prancing Horse 55. 4561SA is a 400 SA with modified GTO styling.
     
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