Lotus, in name anyway, is also a constructor. Alfredo, without these "PR stunts", there would be no F1. And, if they were simply PR stunts, why are pieces much better that the whole?
If Vettel would simply raise a clenched fist upon winning, he would not come across so negatively. Anyone can respect a clean superfast drive and a win. But raising a "no. 1" index finger means something entirely different and given the obvious superiority of the Red Bull cars, it is presumptuous and demeaning to the other drivers.
Interesting. Actually, I would agree with most of what you state. The peanut gallery here on FChat is usually full of themselves as if they know more than those in the pits, so prepare for flack.
So why the heck your 'true constructors' can't win ? You actually make them look more stupid by taking credit away from RB. Haven't you watched the last 4 races? He stopped doing that, so give it a rest . And Vettel and Webber had the same car. Remember each one has its own engineering team to set up the car the way they want. That Webber didn't have the technical knowhow to help with the development is a different issue. As I said, unless you have that special talent, nobody is going to develop it exactly the way you need it to be able to extract 100% performance out of the car, and the car extract 100% out out of you. And yes, Newey made a huge advantage, but mainly because he and Vettel understand each other perfectly. It's not just Newey making a difference; it's Newey AND Vettel making it together. That's why it's likely that if only Vetter or Newey go to Ferrari, neither one would be able to do what they're enjoying now. Maybe close, but not quite the same. Everything has to be right; just like it happened with Schumacher.
I am not an Alonso fan, quite the opposite, but he has the right to be frustrated. It is Ferrari that is at fault. They simply suck. How many failed seasons in a row has this been? Their F1 team is possibly run by the same people that run the production paint facility.
Certainly a second place in the championship is not really what they want to achieve but I do not think that they "suck " or "fail" just because they did not become WDC for six years and WCC for 5 years now with ONE team better then them in these years...If Ferrari failed then 9 other teams failed as well leaving RB the only team that does not. I think that is a very hard version of "show me second and I show you the first looser"! Almost every era had a team that was very superior to the others for some years, be it Mercedes in 1955, Ferrari in the Mid 1970s, McLaren and Williams in the 1980s and 1990, Ferrari with Schumacher and now RB. I think one should be sportsman enough to honour that and if it is not your own team than you can proove that you are a real fan by still supporting them. If you are just a fan and support them as long as they win then you are not a real fan (RP: this is not against you in person but just my opinion about how to support a team).
OK, I guess you didn't get my point. I'm commenting on Vettel's season and not just on this race. Because Vettel has been doing it (as you say, before the last 4 races), it revealed a presumptuous attitude; and THAT is what still upsets people. He's stopped doing it because he realizes it makes him unpopular but he can't undo what he did during the season. It's much harder to undo something like that. As others pointed out, if he shows he can still win with an inferior car, then he would silence his detractors. And I'm not taking credit away from Vettel or Red Bull, I'm commenting on Vettel's performance as a driver and saying a driver's standing depends a lot on his car's performance. I don't believe you would argue that point.
I feel like we have been saying that the previous three years at this time. I fear as long as the Newey, Vettel, Horner Tr-Fecta are present a car that'll work will still come up short. Should be fun to watch Kimi and Fred fight it out though. Kimi will be wanting Gelato though, wonder if that is in the contract?
It was that day. A wet monza when the other teams expected race day to be clearer, instead it was a monsoon.
You haven't gotten my point - I'm talking about winning a season, not a single race which may have been marred by track conditions and circumstances not related to driver skill. Maldonado also won in Spain in a Williams but hasn't since. We all know single wins don't guarantee anything with regard to a season's performance. Vettel only won one race with Toro Rosso in 2008, 1 time on podium. He switched to Red Bull in 2009 and started winning consistently, 4 times and 8 times on podium. So tell me Red Bull wasn't a benefit to his performance. Again, no one is saying Vettel isn't a great driver, just that his standings with regards to his peers are heavily influenced by the dominance of Red Bull's superior cars. So I frankly don't understand what you are arguing about.
I think all of your points are valid. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Vettel/Newey/Horner is this generation's Schu/Brawn/Byrne. As long as those three stay together. Seb will win a lot!
Great post! Its been noted in the press exactly as you stated above. If others of equal caliber were in the Red Bull they too would be winning.
Not this again... This is the last time I will post this, so those who are sick of reading it can rejoice. Torro Rosso was more than "just one win". At 19 he showed pace in a BMW comparable to their actual drivers. Then went to TORO Rosso and was in third (in the rain, in his rookie season) before crashing into webber. He followed this with a 4th in china giving the team their best result ever(at the time), and coming close to bringing them two consecutive podiums. 2008 TR had their best WCC season to date(6th only have 8th since) at the hands of SV despite a terrible Bourdais only contributing 4 of the 39 points. They have done nothing prior or after SV's full one year stint at TR and remains their only winner. SV put the junior Red Bull team AHEAD of the senior RB team in the team standings without a Newey car. And clearly bested both the senior drivers in drivers points who had a Newey car. 2009 he joins RBR which had done nothing EVEN with newey at the helm since 2007 (5th the best result with 7th in 2008). 2009 Vettels first year with RB they hit second in the WCC with Vettel out scoring and capturing more wins vs Webber(2nd vs. 5th in WDC) and giving RBR their first win EVER(after Red bulls junior team remember). 2010 a team that was 7th prior to Vettel's arrival becomes WCC and WDC. Newey had results prior to Seb and Seb even at under 21 clearly was elevating teams that he was racing for and had the results to prove it. Combined they have shown that they can develop a car that fits him perfectly and is about to take 4 consecutive WCC and WDC's. This takes more than just Newey but Seb being able to communicate what he needs/wants from the car and then going out on race day and getting it done. You say Red Bull was a benefit to Seb, I say Seb was a benefit to Red Bull. Alonso showed the same with Renault x2, and Ham is showing the same with his switch to Mercedes. Both previous teams had a noticable drop in results without them and the current teams have seen a rise. The one thing that has stood out to me about Seb vs the other top drivers is the way he closes out a season. Every single year he has been in F1 he is tops come the last bunch of races. Comebacks are the true signs of champions, the ones who put their nose to the grind stone and find a way. Do I think Seb as significant better than Ham or Alonso? No, but I think he shares the best qualities of both and he has clearly done a better job of closing when it counts, something Alonso has failed to do on a few occasions including 2006 where Schuy's late year blown engine gifted the championship to him.
You are asking for something that is almost impossible. Who was the last driver winning a season in a clearly inferior car? Taking this as a requirement for being a great driver neither Fangio, Clark, Senna, Schumacher or your all beloved Alonso fit this criterion, so none of them is a great driver? It looks like we are talking about the same thing here: I fully agree that you have to sit in a Red Bull at the Moment to become WDC, Vettel is no exception. If Alonso and Vettel switch cars it would be Alonso becoming WDC. But it is not true that no one here is saying "Vettel isn´t a great driver", this is the general opinion in most of the threads over here: Alonso is driving god who gets "150% out of a 4th-6th class car" and Vettel is an average driver who is just winning because he is sitting in the Red Bull and I don´t believe either of the two parts. I think that Vettel is underrated because every good drive he had is just credited to the car, for some reason no none over here did that with Schumacher in his dominant years because he was sitting in a Ferrari. I think we should safe these threads of the last 2 years and take them out again if Vettel will ever drive for Ferrari because I am quit sure that some if his critics over here will talk opposite because he is driving in red ;-) Yes if the second driver would have been the monkey...Why are you talking about drivers who were not able to beat their team mate.... But Frentzen is a very good example: Frentzen started as huge talent and as far as I know he was even faster than Schumacher when he was driving at the Mercedes Junior team. But he never became WDC because he was not a champion and lacked the egoism all the greats of the later era (Senna, Schumacher and now Vettel). HH.Frentzen was exactley the "Mr.Nice Guy" you want to see of Vettel to accept him, but just look how far he got with it.
Adding to that, Peter, Webber's breakdowns (although between himself and Vettel since 2009 Webber only had a few more than Vettel in the end...), Webber frequently drives behind others, which overheats the car more (including KERS), likely adding to the breakdowns. I agree with everything you wrote.
+1 (agree with all points). the only reason Webber and Vettel colided was because of Hamilton. Vettel was first given a 10p penalty for the next race, but a fan uploaded a video for the FIA and saw what Ham did, and the penalty was taken away.
Well, very kind of you. As I said, Vettel *is* a great driver but not to the degree of dominance that his race results would seem to imply with regard to his peers. You and some others here seem to have a problem with this opinion and want to ignore the impact of the superior Red Bull car. The odd thing is that you (and a few other people here) also simultaneously agree the Red Bull car is head-and-shoulders better than the rest of the field… but still apparently deny that having any significance over the race results. Vettel was always a very good driver beyond his years but he needed a good car to win. His record at BMW was very promising. The Toro Rosso win was partly good luck. Reb Bull was awful in 2008. Webber was at RB in 2008 and never even made it to the podium. Ditto for Coulthard. Then 2009 rolled in, Webber won 2 races, 8 podiums. Vettel replaced Coulthard and won 4 races, 8 podiums. So are you telling me they both had bad cars in 2009? I don't doubt Vettel is a more successful driver than Webber. They both had good cars. As for 2010, Vettel had 256 points, Webber 242. Are you also insisting they both drove bad cars in 2010? Really? I said that? LOL! Have another look - it will (hopefully) open up your mind! You are imagining things. One of the problems debating with guys on the Internet is that some people are actually debating with an imaginary person in their own minds. To help you out, here are my points again: - Vettel *is* a great driver - Vettel's wins do not fairly represent his skills with regard to those of his peers - the Red Bull car has been dominant in the 2013 season - Newey cars have consistently been at the top since 2009 The drivers and the team are expected to contribute in their own way. It's not a situation where one benefits and the other does not, as you seem to imply. You obviously seem to admire Vettel. I try to remain objective. You say Vettel "…has clearly done a better job of closing when it counts…". The 2013 season results were a foregone conclusion by September/October so all Vettel had to do was drive consistently which he normally does exceptionally well. Where his closing out well really counted was in the 2012 season. Here are the race positions for Vettel and Alonso over the last 5 races in 2012: Alonso 3-2-2-3-2 Vettel 1-1-3-2-6 Brazil was the nailbiting season-ender for 2012 where Vettel needed to close well to win but he clearly did not drive well that day. Alonso at least kept his form and consistency. Vettel went from starting in 4th to 7th by the first corner. Then 3 corners later, he cut Senna off at the start of the corner, took out several cars and damaged his own in the process. Towards the end of the race, if Di Resta had not crashed and brought out the safety car, Alonso might have closed on Button on the last lap. Vettel did not finish out the 2012 well at all. I think he was lucky to win the season title. Do you still think he does a better job closing out?
How are we ignoring the Rb is better if we acknowledge that its better? Not sure what you are getting defensive about? Just trying to show that Monza was more than a fluke race. Vettel came from 43 points back. He then drove back through the field twice with a broken car. He started the race bad yes but recovered. Alonso looked/felt like a sitting duck the whole second half of the season. So yes, my opinion stands.
