Am I Crazy | FerrariChat

Am I Crazy

Discussion in '360/430' started by English Rebel, Jun 10, 2014.

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  1. English Rebel

    English Rebel Formula 3

    Aug 13, 2013
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    Alan
    ....to consider having my transmission heat exchanger replaced for peace of mind? I just got an estimate from my dealer of $2k (including my 10% FDA discount) to replace the transmission heat exchanger on my 15 year old 360 with a Ferrari OEM unit. This includes replacing the inlet manifold gaskets.
    Any thoughts or suggestions will be appreciated. Are there any other items that should be replaced at the same time (I'm thinking hoses and thermostat)?
    Thanks
    Alan
     
  2. rustybits

    rustybits F1 Rookie
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    The failure pattern directly correlates to lack of maintenance. If your coolant has been changed when due then there may well be nothing wrong with it....
     
  3. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    As rustybits mentions above. Keep an eye on the coolant, change it out yearly and enjoy the car. I wouldn't change it... but if you're that worried about it.. aren't you going to spend that money ANYWAY if the part goes? IF it even goes?
     
  4. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

    Jun 14, 2009
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    It's a pretty personal decision you face. I generally approach maintenance on the basis of fixing what's broken or worn out but otherwise simply providing it with a steady diet of the best fluids money can buy.

    I don't think it's worth changing just because it might fail. If you had another reason to have to remove the inlet manifold and you were "in there" anyway I'd be inclined to change but not otherwise. It might never fail and/or it may already have been changed by a previous owner and not included in the service records you have received.

    I check my coolant really regularly and you'd notice oil contamination immediately it starts so if you follow that routine you won't go far with a problem.

    If you do change, Dave Helmes would advise changing the self-bleeding pipes that return the steam & air mix from the radiators to the reservoir tank. (They're the narrow gauge pipes that connect to the reservoir tank).
     
  5. English Rebel

    English Rebel Formula 3

    Aug 13, 2013
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    I agree that it may not be necessary. As far as I can tell by the records I have, my car was maintained by Wide World of Cars in NY (the Ferrari dealer) for the first 6 years and 14k miles. For the next 5 years and 7k miles it appeared to only have oil and filter services. After that it was serviced by a Ferrari shop.
    The only issue is that once it fails it would cost more than $2k to fix it -- agreed the cost of the part and labor to replace it would be the same but the labor for clean up could be many $$$
    Alan
     
  6. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Alan, think about it... and some techs might chime in here.. but how much extra will it be?
    Better, what will the extra clean be? Put detergent in the antifreeze and flush 2-3 times to remove oil from the engine block. Then, removing the antifreeze and oil mix in the transmission. I'd guess and say an extra grand perhaps? So maybe $3000? $3500?

    Versus: Never having to replace it during your ownership and having the $2000 in the bank.
     
  7. F430giallomodena

    F430giallomodena Formula Junior

    Mar 2, 2012
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    usually you replace when broken. At least this is what I do. Otherwise you will start to think about engine failure...gearbox failure, F1 pump failure....what will you do? replace the whole thing with new ones before they could break up?
     
  8. BrettC

    BrettC Formula 3

    Aug 13, 2012
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    Many posts on this subject...I heard of someone who had MUD in their transmission and coolant lines. Took many, many hours at the shop to get the system cleaned...I am sure it depends on the amount of contamination...call Doug at SF motorsports...he recently had a client who's car experienced this failure...I'm thinking the cost was substantially more than 2-3K iirc....
     
  9. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    I was just punting at a number..
     
  10. mikeyr

    mikeyr Formula 3

    Jun 17, 2004
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    slippery slope, where do you stop replacing parts that MAY fail or wear out ?

    Yeah a gearbox is not cheap but I think its silly to replace that part now, if you have to get into the maniforld for another reason, that is a valid time to think about replacing the heat exchanger.
     
  11. 993man

    993man Formula Junior
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    Sorry but why would you? Each to there own, but if it ain't broke................

    Fluids/filters on the other hand, well that's different.
     
  12. Builder360

    Builder360 Rookie

    Aug 25, 2013
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    Mine went out at 22,000 miles. If you check the coolant reservoir you will
    see it mixed with oil. Very sludgy. That's how I caught mine.
     
  13. Red 27

    Red 27 Formula 3

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    Maybe consider removing and flushing the exchanger and changing both fluids if you are that concerned about a failure. Then do the fluids yearly as Brian C has mentioned. To replace a non broken part that does not fail normally if routine maintenance is performed seems unnecessary.
     
  14. Red 27

    Red 27 Formula 3

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    Question for the pro wrenches here.
    Can a functioning heat exchanger be flushed or cleaned ?
     
  15. Kevin Rev'n

    Kevin Rev'n Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Good thought. I am curious too. It's not a lot to flush the system every year. This is my chosen path. I think it's like ~$250 IIRC. That's from a Ferrari dealership FWIW.
     
  16. rustybits

    rustybits F1 Rookie
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    No reason it can't be cleaned. It's just a simple cylinder with some tubes running through the middle of it. The problem isn't a build up of dirt or sludge though, the failure is caused by an electrolytic reaction between the old coolant and the material the cooler is made from. If there are greeny/browny deposits in there the reaction has already started..
     
  17. English Rebel

    English Rebel Formula 3

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    Rick
    What was the bill to replace and clean up (if you don't mind sharing)?
    Thanks
    Alan

    Guys
    All good advice and yes -- why replace something that isn't broke. I guess the only good answer would be -- to save having to possibly replace a transmission. These heat exchangers are a known weak spot on the 360 which is why they changed the design for the 430.
    Alan
     
  18. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Oh yeah..

    Well if gauging corrosion on the part is the desired goal, then you're measuring flow through the part. If its all corroded and there is diminished flow, then in the first 5 minutes of warmup you should be able to take an infrared thermometer and hold it 1 inch from the rubber on the intake of the exchanger and then at the outflow rubber. If the part is corroded, the differential between the two should be greater than say 5 degrees.

    Oh yeah.. the part is inaccessible. ;)

    If it goes on mine I'm going to a challenge setup and getting rid of it altogether. It'll get enough heat on warmup from the cats on either side of the transmission.
     
  19. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
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    I disagree. The known weak spot is folks who are unwilling (that's the polite term) to flush the coolant at regular intervals, as recommended by techs who have worked on these cars for nearly 15 years.
     
  20. Mighty Joe

    Mighty Joe Formula 3

    Sep 3, 2010
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    Drive it, Love it, Maintain it....Repeat!
     
  21. steelej

    steelej Formula Junior

    Jan 15, 2007
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    UK
    If it aint broke.....

    Seriously though, when you do start messing around with things that aren't broken I find that when you start to have issues, i wouldn't mess with anything unless I really had to.

    John.
     
  22. M. Brandon Motorcars

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    When mine failed (2003 360 Spider with 30K miles), Sphere Motorsports charged me over $5K to repair. And, I saw all of the work done; not only pulling everything off of the top of the engine to get to the heat exchanger, there were multiple flush/refills of both coolant and gearbox oil until both were clean.

    More expensive than a major service.
     
  23. M. Brandon Motorcars

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    Just curious, because I really don't know the answer, but I have suffered a failure:

    Why would flushing the coolant regularly reduce the failure rate of the exchanger? My understanding is that one or more of the tubes in the exchanger crack, probably due to heat stress.

    Aha, maybe now I get it... not changing the coolant leads to less heat transfer, which increases heat, which causes the cracking of the tubes?
     
  24. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    I think its an argument of corrosion in the system with acidic buildup over time with old coolant.
     
  25. BrettC

    BrettC Formula 3

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    Agreed, that seems to be the concensus....but they could just fail right? Anyone do frequent coolant flushes and still have a failure?
     

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