American Cars: Unreliable or merely unmaintained?

If you consider my dad had a Lincoln Town Car (it was eventually passed to me), before we sold it (at close to 300k miles), I have to say, the engine is still as strong as the one on the new BMW I got... Of course I blew the engine out once, but that was my fault, I drive with a heavy foot, and I knew the fan was having issues and I didn't let off the gas even though I knew of the heating issues so a piston had to be replaced.

 

How are people who buy Japanese cars more sophisiticated? In my experience, they're even more clueless.

Regardless, I read an interesting article a while ago about transmissions, I believe. There was a car that was produced (or at least the transmission) in both Japan and the U.S. They were to be produced exactly the same, though the Japanese version ended up being much more reliable in the long run. How is this possible? It turns out that the Japanese version had parts that were made much closer to specifications and to close tolerances, while the U.S. version was not as close to the specifications, though within the required tolerances.

If that doesn't make any sense, the U.S. version basically sucked and the Japanese version was superior. End of story. :-D

 

I believe what you say is true. Somehow, the imports have sold us on the fact that regular maintenance breeds reiliability while domestic owners consider it a pain in the tailgate.

I've seen more than one family with an import and a domestic slavishly maintain the import on schedule while ignoring simple maintenance on the domestic---then go on and on about how the import is better built and more reliable.

 

We had a pretty good discussion last night in my statistics class about american auto makers vs. japanese autos, mainly Toyota. We were talking about quality control. Profesor grew up with her father working for GM as a Quality control manager. He actually montitored the assembly lines. She stated that he was instructed to actually ignore certain tell tail signs that something was wrong with the machine. Even though the machines were operation with control variances, there are still signs that say when something is wrong. Down machinetime is a BIG NO-NO in the auto industry. We rely and focus to much in the short term where-as Japanese auto comp. really focus on long term. Many japanese companies actually have 100 year business plans. Also, people have lifetime employment in the land of the rising sun. No unions....that I'm aware of. Short term profits seem less important. They are more apt to shut machines down in order to make things correct. I'm sure there is MUCH more to it.

Anyone here ever done any research on this? I'd love to go further into it than just one discussion with a graduate professor.

J

 

japanesse cars are more reliable,
american car makers have tried to hard to cut down cost and on the long run it affected the quality.

at least here in Costa Rica, american cars are not so popular due to high maintenance costs compared to japanesse cars(wich tend to have a good resale value , unlike american cars)
there are even some delears that don't take trade-ins when the vehicle being received is an ford explore or a cherokee or stuff like that

 

It's not just maintenance. First new car defect stats show that the Japanese cars do have higher quality control. Second, the reputation for greater reliability arose in the 70's & 80's when Japanese cars weren't highly valued and were actually considered "economy" cars, so they were as likely to be as poorly maintained as American cars.

 

The reality of it is that ALMOST NO ONE follows the manufacturers maintenance recommendations. Most folks I know will take their car in every 3000-5000 miles for an oil change. Thats about it. When the guy at jiffy lube offers the "trans service and coolant flush", 1/2 the folks might do that...maybe.

Keep in mind the typical consumer isn't a car lover. They don't post on web sites regarding which oil viscosity is best for their Impala... They put the gas in, drive until something breaks...then fix it. Most folks won't spend 700$ on a 30,000 mile service for their Ford...

Manufacturers are deluding themselves if they think folks go to the dealer every 5000 miles and do "the recommended service." And, in that light, japanese cars do way better with the lack of maintenance. They just last longer.

 

Random problems with my 2000 Corvette..... by 20k miles the air conditioner compressor had died, the computer that recieves signals from the key fob had died and the differential was leaking. I had the problems fixed under warranty (the dealer was a whole other nightmare) and since then no more problems with those items. At 30k miles the electronic steering column lock failed which is a known issue with Vettes which GM has a recall on.... unfortunately the recall doesn't actually fix the issue, it just makes the engine shut off so I installed an aftermarket bypass kit which fixes the problem.

Random problems with my 1985 Toyota..... at 120k miles the engine was running rather poorly and I had the carb rebuilt which solved the problem. At 160k miles the electric engine cooling fan died after the car sat for two months.

I haven't dealt with Toyota but Chevrolet dealers are a nightmare to deal with. The screwed up my car (whole other thread here on the subject) and were basically a bunch of lying bastards about it. GM corporate was absolutely no help at all. My Vette seems to be fine now and I enjoy driving it but now matter how good the new Vettes may be I really can't see buying another one after my experience so far with Chevy/GM.

 

I personally have had very good luck with my GM vehicles. I also know that GM has been right on the heels of Honda and Toyota in initial quality reports, according to JD Power and Assoc. If not for Hummer, they would have been ahead of Honda (figured upon errors per hundred vehicles).

I have owned 3 Vettes.....well over 100K miles on the first two, and only one A\C compressor to show for it.

1 Tahoe and 1 Silverado......At 105K on the Tahoe, the A\C compressor failed (pattern forming?)

2 Grand Prix GTP's, no problems except for a steering shaft knock, which was fixed under warranty.


The Toyota dealership next door, has a very large service dept, and guess what? It's always busy.


IMO, they are all designed to fail eventually.

 

I hear it all the time how American cars have come close to and even surpassed the Japanese automakers in initial quality. My understanding of initial quality is that it only covers problems (or lack thereof) in the first 90 days of ownership. I could see how that could be the case since most of the things that are going to fail in ninety days are superficial things like sun visors and broken trim, etc. Where a Japanese car really shines in my experience is when they start to get a lot of years/miles on them. My Acura has just over 100k miles and everything electrical still works on it. Every American car I have had turned into an absolute **** box after 100k. The drivetrains are reliable, but the wiring and electrical components just start to disintegrate after a few years. In the Mustangs and Ford pickups I had in high school and college everything electrical was glitchy. Rear defrosters (plural) quit, fuses blew, cruise controls crapped out, backup lights quit, alternators went bad, fuel pumps quit, all sorts of mysterious rattles and thunks would develop, power mirrors and seats went AWOL, and on about half the American cars I have owned, when you tried to set the cruise control, it would blow the fuse for it and the horn system. The engines and transmissions would last forever, but the rest of the cars were junk. I feel that the Japanese do a much better job vetting out potential problems in their electrical components and suppliers than American automakers.

 

You are correct about the intial quality.

However, some of the experiences you list, must have been with older vehicles. Most of the modern American cars seem to be just fine electronically after 100K. I was a Used Car Manager for a Chevy dealership for a few years, so I've seen lots and lots of vehicles from this category.

No doubt though, the early 90's and older American vehicles had alot of electrical issues.

 

I recall reading that the average education level of the import buyer is higher than that of the domestic car buyer, so you're probably right that the import buyer is "more sophisticated" and also more likely to play by the rules (e.g., follow the service recommendations).

But I've had 3 Hondas, and they were all flawless. At the same time, my German cars haven't been that reliable, and I've maintained them lavishly at their respective dealers. My BMW ate power window motors (3 times in 2 years) and had tranny computer issues causing it to lurch into neutral at stops; my SLK needed a new dashboard after 7000 miles. Not sure more maintenance would have prevented any of these issues.

My Jeeps have been fine. My quarrel with most American cars isn't that I think they're going to leave me stranded. It's that they generally exude cheapness and look like an inferior product -- a Chevy Monte Carlo I had to rent last year was a travesty, even if everything worked. Flaking interior plastics confirmed my hunch that GM doesn't care about cars.

 

I heard this same story from my professor of a Productions Operations Management graduate course. This guy had real world experience unlike some academics. It was a Mazda/Ford tranny. Same transmission design but Japan manufacture vs. USA.

 

This may have nothing to do with Japan vs. American quality, simply Mazda's/Fords unwillingness to bring one plant to the same spec.

What about details regarding the tooling used to manufacture the parts, bearing/parts suppliers, gear alloys, heat treating processes etc....

Transmission manufacturing is a very automated process, this leads me to conclude that the Japanese plant likely was equipped with more modern tooling and/or perhaps also used different part suppliers.

Just how similar really were these transmissions?

Which transmission was this anyways?

 

J.D. Powers Dependability studies are for the first 3 years. American cars place reasonably well there.

 

My family has never owned a foreign car. My mom's mercury will go forever (her last one was 15 years old and had a lot of use) and we've had great luck with lincolns to. But we take care of our cars we follow maintenance instructions and don't treat them like **** as many people do their cars.

I will say american cars do seem inferior in terms of quality and engineering, very simple and plain in both styling and engineering. I just don't like them. But I wouldn't say they aren't dependable.

 

From personal experience, unreliable.

I had one particular American car that was fantastically reliable until 23X,XXX kilometres, then poof! Who needs rod bearings, right?

 

I honestly believe that it is a combination of both of these factors. I believe that American manufacturers build vehicles that don't last so well long term because most of the demographic they go for doesn't even maintain the car anyways, so either way it'll crap out at 70,000 miles (my dad's Intrepid did, though he maintained it quite well).

If you look at say a Ford Focus or some other American car or truck that is made specifically for the Europe market, I think you will see better quality control, and long term reliability.

The UAW isn't helping anything either, because the workers know that if they aren't putting out that great of quality, being in one of America's largest and most powerful unions will make it that it is nearly impossible for the company to fire them, so there is only at best, mediocre quality coming from these workers. But this is just my $.02.

 

How you put them together apparently makes a big difference:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060410/BUSINESS01/604100374/1014

This article is GM-specific, the numbers show that the "new" GM architectures do very well, while the old ones suck. The question is if GM can exist long enough to get the "good" cars in production and change public perception.

 

Related article on the GM Minivans, worst of the bunch:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060410/BUSINESS01/604100373/1014

 

I get new-ish American cars as loaners (last 2 years). They are not that bad in terms of reliablity (ie they do not break while I am driving them). After driving them, however, I would definately not buy a GM or Ford product.

 

My dad had a couple Chevy Suv's and as some of you have previous pointed out, for short term milage, they are just fine. After 3 years and over 60kmiles they become disposable. Bushings, alternators,brakes, suspension and many other items need replacing. The components, not the car itself, just dont last as much as european or japanese cars and the cars themselves just feel cheaply made, no pleasure engineered whatsoever but you cant blame the big 3 for that, just look at the vast distances americans drive, long smooth highways and for that kind of driving, nothing beats an American car.

 

The only thing American I buy are trucks and SUVs for me and my wife. We get new ones every two years.

My wife's first Navigator....a dream. The second, semi sucked, no major problems, but minor cosmetic faux pas. The third totally sucked, had to go back for minor BS, also cracked a cylinder head. Her fourth, so far so good.

My first F150, got hit by an 18 wheeler, drove it to the Ford place (the bed was shortened by 2 ft and was as tall as the cab. Drove down the road sideways.

F250 diesel cab 1/2 short bed, no problems 60,000mi, F250 crew cab diesel short bed, no problems 45,000mi, F 250 crew cab short bed, had some engine roughness I think water/gunk in the fuel line, at 90,000mi. Traded it in for a F350 crew cab diesel long bed two weeks ago.

 

I owned a Chevy Silverado from 98-02, and had a Camaro z28 as well from 02-04. In 02 I married into a "honda family" (they've owned something like 12 in the past ten years among the four drivers) and I am a full fledged convert. My wife and I put 65k on a used Civic (had 65k on it when we bought it) and the only thing.... ONLY thing at ALL in those miles that failed was a CD jammed in the player. Our 2004 Accord now has 46k on it, and the only malady has been a headlight that went out at 40k (I keep mine on all the time, day and night).

I change my oil every 5-6k miles, and I'll replace things like air/fuel filters periodically. that's about it.