An another Mondial T potential buyer thread | FerrariChat

An another Mondial T potential buyer thread

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by Rupp3r, Aug 28, 2016.

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  1. Rupp3r

    Rupp3r Karting

    Aug 26, 2016
    182
    France
    Hello

    Ok so after stealing a little bit the thread of christiandk I thought it would be better to start my own thread, hoping it is not too much redundant for you!

    Last year, I was already looking quite in detail at buying a Mondial T but the first overview on some boards and discussion with a friend of mine who was owning a Ferrari afraid me quite a lot (a 308 with guess what.. gearbox bearing issues!).

    I am now back in the business and I decided to really try to know if my idea of buying a Mondial T is stupid or not!
    I am quite a DIY guy and excepted a major issue or situation I am doing service and repair myself. However, that is not a reason to just close the eyes and see what happens!

    I understand that a particular attention must be paid to the electronic stuff and to the ABS since they are known to fail.

    As you would guess, many of my questions will be transmission related, since this is the big question mark for me:

    -regarding the clutch service, is the replacement of the throw out bearing and/or the triple seals mandatory at a certain interval or is just a fail and replace (are they any easily symptoms regarding these parts?)
    -are a check through the gearbox inspection panel and a metal check on the drain plug enough to ensure to current health of the gearbox?
    -in order to be on the safe side, can a re tightening of the famous locknuts be done without opening fully the gearbox?

    Before going to check a first car, I would then like to have a clear idea of what to ask and what to check for..

    Thanks (and sorry for the first bad impression while stealing the other thread, my intention was to try to avoid creating a new potential buyer thread as I am sure you are seeing quite a lot of them who don't often turns out into a new owner!)
     
  2. dfranzen

    dfranzen Formula 3
    Owner

    Aug 31, 2013
    1,577
    Ponte Vedra Beach , FL
    Full Name:
    Don Franzen
    Please read the site
    My Ferrari 348

    In my 4 years being around the T and 348 I havent heard of these issues as they most likely have been fixed.
     
  3. Alden

    Alden F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 25, 2010
    2,903
    Central Florida
    Read everything Mondial related you can find on the forum.

    Drive a few, if you can, pick one and get a thorough PPI done by a qualified and recommended Ferrari specialist.

    Then buy it and drive it and stop worrying! Lol!
    Alden
     
  4. gsfent

    gsfent Formula 3

    Nov 16, 2009
    1,096
    PB County, Florida
    Full Name:
    Jerry
    I haven't either. I have had my car about 5 years and spent a couple of years of searching before that. It may be a problem, but seems to be pretty small.

    OP:

    The service cost difference is way overblown. Here is some pricing from a Ferrari dealer in Tampa, Fl. I don't know if the pricing is current (seems to be higher than I remember), but note the difference for service between a 3.2 and a 3.4 (t, not T) is about $500. If you do a major service every 5 years, that is $100 a year. On these cars, that is a rounding error in your service budget.


    308 - $5,300
    328 - $5,300
    355 - $5,800
    Mondial - $5,800
    348 - $6,200
    Mondial T - $6,200

    I love the t for its power steering (can't tell at speed) and 3 way adjustable suspension (out of the Corvette parts bin). Not the fastest car on the road today, but still plenty quick given the stiff gearing. And reasonably good on fuel on the highway if you are just cruising somewhere near the speed limit, :), mid 20's.

    Good luck in your search.

    Regards,
    Jerry
     
  5. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Mar 31, 2006
    32,793
    East Central, FL
    Full Name:
    Wade O.
    Great info Jerry. My 1990 348 just had its 30K full service including a water pump change (not faulty, just 26 years old) by a highly regarded Indie. $6200 almost to the dollar.
     
  6. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 1, 2013
    15,983
    Menlo Park, CA
    Full Name:
    Paul Chua
    Welcome!

    Buying any vintage Ferrari can easily fall on either side of the 'stupid' line. My experiences have pretty much followed general wisdom you'll find on these boards. The engine itself has proven rock solid - issues have been with ancillary components. Get a car either from a current enthusiast that have owned/maintained their t, with a PPI to me is the best insurance policy. I've seen cars in this situation to be around the 50K range.


    If you do plan to get one that has been in on dealer/consignment inventory/sitting around - just set aside 10K-15K to bring it back to life and drive the thing every week. These cars I've seen in the 35-40K range. So it's a wash. Hopefully you are lucky like me and don't have to spend 10K-15K to bring it back, but that's the thing - it's a crap shoot. You really don't know what is going to break when you buy a car that's been sitting and start driving it around again. You have to expect to worst, hope for the best.

    I have had zero transmission/clutch issues in 3 years since buying mine, and 10K+ Miles

    What happens with these cars is people buy them for the 'low' starting price only not to have any money left to do the proper service. A neglected car suffers further neglect, and the vicious cycle continues, often the problem car is sold to another equally unprepared person with unrealistic expectations. (some of those folks come back to this very forum to whine and complain about their 'bad' Mondial)

    Finally on a more existential view, Ferrari cars in particular are around a high point. So right now is sort of a 'bad' time to buy any Ferrari in my opinion from a value perspective. Just 5-6 short years ago, you could buy a Mondial t for 30K all day long...if the next economic downturn occurs, maybe this will happen again? Or, like other Ferrari (say the 308 GT4) - the Mondial t might never be 30K again.

    That's the funny thing about these classic cars. We all have stories of "I had the chance to buy X for only Y!!! back in Z" When nobody loves a car, you can easily fall in the trap of following the herd. Buy get what *you* love, ignore everybody else. You'll always be happy.

    See Jay Leno when his friend 'gave' him a Lamborghini Muira for free (when they were not nearly in vogue as they are now)
     
  7. Rupp3r

    Rupp3r Karting

    Aug 26, 2016
    182
    France
    Thanks for your answer.

    I am clearly not exhausted by the service cost, since as I said I will be doing it myself and that we can source standard parts and a reasonable price and even upgraded ones like HILL.

    The only issue comes when there is a big breakdown since I have clearly understand than in this situation, one must rely on Ferrari parts and that they are stupidly pricey!

    Paulchua, to be honest with you my budget is somewhat 35/40k(€). I understand what you say and you are definitely right. My points -which are valid for a normal" car are:

    -since I will do the service and work myself, I do know that if I buy a mint example with FSH, I will loose a lot of money since I will break this service history... And I simply do not want to pay 15K more for having Ferrari invoices of tires and oil/brake services.. and this is not a guarantee that when there is hard work needed it is done...

    -I also enjoy almost as much working on my cars than driving, I will be happy to solve a few things and then start the key!

    But this is not a reason for buying a car without any service history because if there is any breakdown it will cost a lot more. I just want to find a normal nice looking example, good serviced by its owner (with parts invoice and if possible any picture reports, ...) or by some good working indies! Maybe this particular thing is not serious when considering a Ferrari...

    Regarding the actual pricing, well this is an interesting talk. I am obviously on the other side on the story but what I am definitely noticing is indeed a huge increase in price in Porsche and Ferrari.
    I remember having spotted some nice Mondial T last year for less than 30k€ which is now not anymore possible.
    Meanwhile, I have been looking everytime the classifieds in the entire Europe for a 964 and I have the feeling to notice an increase in the price month after month! There are a lots of car that are not sold for long-time but at the end since everyone is rising their prices...
    I remember looking 2 years ago at the 550 and 355 and saying "in two years I will have one"...

    Is it going to reverse? Honestly I don't think so. Regarding Porsche I would think that for me (it is a very personal point of view) the price rise may also comes from the fact that we will never have real engine anymore, due to all these downsizing, 4 pots, fake engine sound and clinical driving experience. This is not yet true for Ferrari.

    I do not think the price would decrease if there is any economic downturn. The Mondial and others similar cars price was indeed low 5/6 years ago, but it was also 10 years ago before the economical troubles?

    Maybe you as a owners have a different view of the story. As a buyer, I am seeing only the advertised selling price but not the real one!

    I think the Mondial T is still a good bang for the buck, same nice engine as the 348, 2+2, quite reliable, ... and then the styling is up to everyone..
     
  8. gsfent

    gsfent Formula 3

    Nov 16, 2009
    1,096
    PB County, Florida
    Full Name:
    Jerry
    And so you understand why we think the Mondial is such a great car!! Even the 3.2 is a good car. I love having the extra seats, it allows me to use "practical' and "Ferrari" in the same sentence! I think the Pininfarina styling has held up very well over the years. And the t has power steering (you cannot tell at speed) and 3 way adjustable shocks, something even the 348 does not have.

    On parts, some are pretty unique to Ferrari and there is a premium. However, the are posts (and check the 348 board) for cross references to other cars using the same parts. For example, the driver side mirror switch on my t coupe is out of a BMW E34. Check Ferrari pricing. Then check BMW pricing It can be had new in the box from BMW or a vendor for about $35! In Europe, should be even better if you can cross reference with Lancia and Alfa. More common parts.

    Pricing is unknown, but in the absence of another word economic collapse, I would say these cars are fully depreciated. The costs are maintenance, and if you are doing your own (so you know it is done correctly, I fully understand!), it should not be bad at all.

    Finally buy the car because you enjoy it, not because it is an "investment".

    Regards,
    Jerry
     
  9. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 1, 2013
    15,983
    Menlo Park, CA
    Full Name:
    Paul Chua
    Wise post +1000
     
  10. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 8, 2004
    1,073
    I would not rely too much on the active members for advice. This is like asking a heroin addict which drug is best. Go talk to some independent mechanics who work on several makes of cars. If you must buy a vintage Ferrari get a 328 without abs.
     
  11. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 1, 2013
    15,983
    Menlo Park, CA
    Full Name:
    Paul Chua
    #11 paulchua, Aug 29, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016
    Wow - now you're comparing us all to heroin addicts?

    Yes, we all are Mondial fans (and maybe you're right, some of us are addicted to it.) If you want to say I'm addicted to the Mondial and Ferrari, you're probably right.

    My question is this: If *this* forum is your idea of a 'crack house' - why do you, a sober individual keep hanging your hat here? Look, I've never been a fan of the Ford Pinto or Yugo, but it would be sad indeed if I spent most of my time on those forums bashing the cars? If somebody loves the Pinto or Yugo - no skin off my back...it seems to irk you a great deal that some people like the Mondial.

    Gotta say that Mondial 8 really did a number on you...it hurt you so bad, you really find the need to go back on a Mondial enthusiast forum over and over and over again...
     
  12. gsfent

    gsfent Formula 3

    Nov 16, 2009
    1,096
    PB County, Florida
    Full Name:
    Jerry
    Sure ask a "born again" what is wrong with all the other religions. You are clearly free from bias unlike the active members here. :)

    The members here are pretty candid about the good and bad on these cars. There have been issues on these 30 year old cars and most of the time the information here is as good or better than most dealership service techs give you to sort them out.

    You are entitled to your opinion as long as you are candid about how you came about it (and you are a data point of 1), but no proselytizing!!

    Regards,
    Jerry
     
  13. dfranzen

    dfranzen Formula 3
    Owner

    Aug 31, 2013
    1,577
    Ponte Vedra Beach , FL
    Full Name:
    Don Franzen
    WTF Russ?

    you still upset cause you sold your car then it got flipped for more than you sold????

    I respect your older informative posts but WTF ??

    The poster already stated some cars out of reach and named his price range 30/40 Euros and is inquiring on the board here, you gave a really stupid response to go buy a (328 non abs) as those are twice the gentleman's budget

    And there are some mechanics that are posting in case you didnt know???
     
  14. Alden

    Alden F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 25, 2010
    2,903
    Central Florida
    I am so glad to see Russ didn't miss trolling this thread, I thought maybe somthing had happened to him. ;-)
    Alden

    Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk
     
  15. Meister

    Meister F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 27, 2001
    5,516
    Duluth, MN
    Full Name:
    The Meister
    The "T" power train in the Mondi and 348 is one of the more reliable units to come from ferrari. Yes the engine needs to be fully dropped for belt service, but many other things were made easier to work on like the clutch, gearbox and engine oil changes etc compared to the transverse 3 series engine layout.

    The 3.4 engine while not bullet proof does not seem to have some of the big ticket repair items associated with the 355 engine like valve guides, cracked exhaust manifolds and other things.

    Overall you will not regret buying one. It's a car and like any other will need attention down the road, but dont live in fear of it.
     
  16. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 1, 2013
    15,983
    Menlo Park, CA
    Full Name:
    Paul Chua
    to help de-stigmatize at the same time shed some light on realistic maintenance costs - I'm planning to do a full "deep dive" on all my historical issues with the associated costs. Perhaps that will help potential buyers have honest expectations.

    I will say one thing that I have a huge advantage here in NorCal is I have a extremely vibrant and active Ferrari community. So many of the things I encountered were easy fixes or explained to me with my bi-weekly drives with the NorCal Ferrari Group (FOG)

    I also have 3 great indy shops and the official Ferrari dealership is only 5 minutes away from my house.

    I have a ton of resources not easily available to a lot of folks - I can say it has helped tremendously.

    If you live in a rural area far away from any experts and sages...that definitely can make issues that much harder to trouble shoot and resolve.

    Some things that have come up literally have been 'fixed' with a 5 min chat with a member of my club. For example, I had an oil leak that I couldn't find - drove up to a friend's house 10 minutes away (he owns a 328,348,355) and he was like - ah - here it is: missing oil cap gasket. Done. Popping fuse? Oh - here it is - bad fuel pump. Alternator light comes up? Ah - had mine done here - in and out. stuff like that.
     
  17. sidtx

    sidtx F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Feb 9, 2014
    4,454
    Frisco, Tx
    Full Name:
    Sid
    I love my QV. Had it 18 months now and no major issues - biggest was the alternator that required a $100 rebuild.

    Now for the confession part. Considering their explosive reputation, I don't really understand it, but I have a very soft spot for Pintos. Especially the "Pinto Cruising Wagon"!!! 1977 Ford Pinto Cruising Wagon

    Sid
     
    WilyB likes this.
  18. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 1, 2013
    15,983
    Menlo Park, CA
    Full Name:
    Paul Chua
    more power to you my friend! Not my cup of tea - but you won't find me on Pinto Car Club of America, denigrating the car on the forums. I'm sincerely happy that people love it! I say to them - Enjoy!
     
  19. Rupp3r

    Rupp3r Karting

    Aug 26, 2016
    182
    France
    Hello

    Thanks for your message. The picture is not as bad as I thought!

    I have contacted one Mondial T which I should check this week end.

    It looks to be a quite good car with a FSH from new. Clutch, starter motor and belt are one year old. However, he told me that there hasn't been any big work on the car from new (53k miles).

    There are however 2 bad spots and I would like to get your opinion:

    -even after the starter motor replacement, there is still some hot start issue. The owner told me about a weird solution of moving a little bit the car when in gear (and parked).
    From what I have read on this board, this is a typical old Ferrari problem (one friend of mine with a Testa had the same and was going crazy with it) and can be solved by simply adding a WR1 relay, is it right?

    -he also told me that he has never used the air conditioning because he dislikes it (he is a old men) so did the previous owner. This can be true and then only a refill is needed but in the case he is lying, what issue can I expect from this side?

    He also told me (he must not be a good seller!) that the handling was not great and that this was quite a tricky car. I have nevertheless read that the Mondial T handling was not so tricky, and anyway way less than a 348 for example. I am not a crazy driver, but I would like to know if the handling is quite healthy of if this is the kind of car that does oversteer like crazy?

    Cheers
     
  20. gsfent

    gsfent Formula 3

    Nov 16, 2009
    1,096
    PB County, Florida
    Full Name:
    Jerry
    Likely. Moving the car in gear moves the teeth on the starter motor. ever so slightly to prevent them from jamming. The kits are available from places like Pelican Parts and Autohaus. Around $30 or so. One thing I did was put the module with the fuse in the trunk (originally installed inside the right rear tire well). Thinking about the hassle of trying to replace a fuse there while stuck on the road, it is now mounted on the board in the trunk where everything else is mounted. Keep a couple of spare fuses and you are good to go.

    If all it needs is a fill, I would make the seller do it. I suspect it is more than that if it has not been used for years. Compressor (expensive), drier or accumulator (can cross shop this, not expensive) and evaporator. There will also be a condenser, but they tend not to go bad unless from lack of use.

    Mine handles very well. These cars are very sensitive to alignment. Take the car to a good shop that knows how to set up this kind of car. Get some advice from locals. When set up correctly, it handles like a go cart!!!

    Regards,
    Jerry
     
  21. christiandk

    christiandk Rookie

    Aug 25, 2016
    9
    Looked up prices on suspension parts. A Rebuild actuator.... 500 bucks. A new one, I dont even want to write the number. Put me off a bit. At least untill my Valeant shares spike 300%.
     
  22. Rupp3r

    Rupp3r Karting

    Aug 26, 2016
    182
    France
    #22 Rupp3r, Sep 1, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2016
    Hello

    I have seen that a common problem on the 348 regarding the climate control is the control unit on the dashboard which is dead. Does this also apply to a Mondial T and could explain why the owner "don't use" the air conditioning?

    Christiandk, the alternator can be swapped for a "normal" one for the same price as every other car (100/200$) as I have understand.

    However it is true that the adjustable suspension shall work otherwise it looks to be quite expensive!
    Regarding this point, I have seen some threads were the suspension ECU was dead without any warning light.
    Do you have any advice on what to check regarding the adjustable suspension?

    Further, I would like to get your opinion regarding the price difference that one could expect between a car that has 30k miles and this one for instance which has almost 55k miles and apparently had no major repair but only services (and clutch).
    I would tend to think that from this mileage one would expect some troubles and I am also amazed to see that most Mondial for sale only have 30k! That is really low for almost 30 years cars!
    Do you think that this kind of mileage (50/55k) is a bit of a problem for selling Ferrari like this? (asking this in order to see what type of price dealing I can expect :p ).

    edit: regarding the ABS, I have seen that there is a trick to use a fuse in order to display an error code. Is it an official thing that the owner would be likely to do in order to check the ABS?
     
  23. Faber

    Faber Formula Junior

    May 5, 2011
    954
    TX Hill Country
    Full Name:
    Tom G.
    "Further, I would like to get your opinion regarding the price difference that one could expect between a car that has 30k miles and this one for instance which has almost 55k miles and apparently had no major repair but only services (and clutch).
    I would tend to think that from this mileage one would expect some troubles and I am also amazed to see that most Mondial for sale only have 30k! That is really low for almost 30 years cars!
    Do you think that this kind of mileage (50/55k) is a bit of a problem for selling Ferrari like this? (asking this in order to see what type of price dealing I can expect ).
    "

    In my limited experience the difference is only market perception but I may be lucky - 2 Ferraris (79 400GT Carbed 5spd & 3.2 Mondi) both w/ over 50K miles and no real mechanical issues - but I know great mechanics. I was looking to add another Mondi and I was seeking a 40-50K mi car - lots more pricing leverage and with a PPI you mitigate loads of mechanical concerns - with or without records. So far the Mondi is cheaper than several MBs I've owned - and lots more fun to drive.
     
  24. motomike8

    motomike8 Karting

    Jan 7, 2015
    60
    Phoenix, AZ
    Full Name:
    Mike
    IMHO the T is the best Mondial made (no disrespect) - since it was the last, it's the most modern. However you do have all the issues that the added electronics bring.

    I have owned my T for a little more than a year and a half and love it. The car sounds fantastic, looks great and handles very well. Very neutral in the turns compared to a typical front engine sports car. Also the longer wheelbase gives it an excellent ride on the freeway compared to some other Ferrari models.

    I bought my car for $35k and knew I was going to put $10k in for a major. I'm right around that mark now after replacing fuel pumps and the clutch. The car has 50k miles on it - but totally sorted now and runs great. I highly recommend it.
     
  25. stekkefun4

    stekkefun4 Formula 3
    BANNED

    Nov 22, 2006
    2,232
    Belgium - Europe
    I have 3 second hand actuators that I'm selling, for much less that a rebuild costs :)
     

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