Another 12c vs 458 head to head test

I don't have any hatred for ferrari, although I definitely dislike their business practices, and their sustained campaign to rig objective test results. They do diminish for me the enjoyment of their cars.

As to the reviews, I actually agree and I pay attention more to the British mags than to anybody else. The point here is that the car represents a different set of priorities compared to what the Brits want out of one. The chassis is not entertaining in the way Italia's is. The focus is very different. Pretty clearly.

As to driving style, there is clearly something to it, since many reviewers (in Brit papers) commented on it. The car, apparently, does require a special driving style (like, say Porsche's).

I agree that the Ring time is not very impressive.

 

Oh, man, I just gave you the benefit of the doubt: so after riding in the car you comment on its driving pleasure? Sorry, but in this case you don't know what you are talking about.

 

I didn't cancel, I suspended it till a test drive. I did test drive it and even posted a review on this forum.

I definitely prefer the British press, but I understand what their criticism is about and what their priorities are. I never said they know nothing about the feel. The only criticism of their opinions I have is AutoExpress praising Italia's steering feel. That's not the car's strength.
I always trusted Sport Auto. Especially in testing.

 

Sorry, that makes no sense. We are talking about a mass produced item, not about a work of art. The point is the function, not the process. Who could possibly care?

 

That's a fair point.

 

There folks we have it, I find it staggering that numbers and road tests contribute to your enjoyment of a car. You have merely just proved what I thought all along, to you numbers and stats mean everything your posts reinforce that impression.

How you can say the practices of a company diminish you enjoyment there product is beyond me. Do you think when you drive 'oh but Ferrari did this, I cant enjoy this corner", lest you forget you beloved McLaren were fined $100 mil, would that reduce your enjoyment?

I am sorry but you PR machine is becoming more and more ridiculous, you arent going to convince anyone here the Mc is "better".

To me this as a debate lost any merit months ago but the same tired ideas keep being wheeled out.

 

That's not the reason. The point is that it leaves me constantly with a nagging thought what else does not work as advertised. After my adventures with CCB's on scuderia, I learned a painful lesson of taking mfr's hype at face value.

 

in psychiatric circles, you are loved. fantastic how the same tired 'arguments' are rehashed in a neverending goop. are you like this with household appliances? the odds and ends in life? other cars you own or is it simply Ferrari? there are a gazillion more evil brands out there (shady practices as well as nasty for people and the planet)...do they warrant the same kind of schtick from you? for the sake of argument, lets just pretend that Ferrari do 'cheat' raw data for that last Nth (ie a 'rigged' 1:20 lap time vs a 'legit' 1:23)...why does it bother you so much, to the point of shading your enjoyment of incredible toys? toys that most people will never get to experience? btw, more and more 458 owners are starting to have problems with the tranny's in their cars...should they all start ranting about Ferrari's antics with 'the numbers game'? i'm just very curious....

 

You really should consider just getting a '10 GT3RS. A pristine one can be had for 110k or less, they are rock solid track machines that are also usable daily (I drove a GT3 for 3 years as DD). Most importantly for your purposes, Porsche does not do any funny stuff on their numbers and these cars are very well understood and proven for track use.

 

wrong again ... jeez, it's really getting old pointing out every time you're flat wrong. Is this enjoyable for you?

I know exactly what i'm talking about. It's you who apparently has no clue what i'm talking about

I've driven the 458. I have not driven the scud, although i have ridden in one. I prefer the 458 ... the sound, the styling, the sensory experience of the acceleration, the exquisite balance in the corners, at and just beyond the limit ... and yes, i'm quite sure that driving the scud won't change my impression of the 458

 

EXACTLY.

This dude can't bring himself to take the plunge on the 458, because Ferrari "lied to him" (something about curb weights and ringers, if memory serves).

Now, he would be flat-out embarrassed to pull the trigger on the McLaren, because guess what? Yep, McLaren has lied to him too Car just doesn't live up to the hype ... the hype he swallowed long ago ... hook, line & sinker

What's a boy to do? Numbers mean EVERYTHING to him. Reviewer's tests mean SO MUCH, he's desperately searching for one he can believe.

He's lost Never to enjoy a damn car ... nevermore.

 

LOL, there's always a Yugo...that might be better looking than the 12C!

 

Tks for thinking of me.

Yes, I love coke and I like Pepsi and I love MAC and I like PC. Re: Both great cars. For sure, MP4-12c, revolutionary. Yet, admittedly, I am happier where I am now. It's a personal matter and if it sings to you, get the MP4 and if 458 sings to me I buy it. I am happier now. I had a lot of mishaps and hassles.

I must admit, I got my 458, can't be happier. I use the 458 as a daily and spend my time motoring instead of thinking about failed deliverables, glitches and delayed deliveries. Endless emails from HQ, dealers explaining the situation. Admittedly, I was very very tired and the best ring times can't make up for all the times wasted listening to my dealer asking me to keep my deposit till they get a demo out in Oct. I do not think there will be one and second time around, they said they weren't sure when demo would be out as worldwide deliveries delayed due to software glitches. For consumers spending this sort of crazy money in turmoil times, we want to buy a little emotions, happiness and satisfaction to keep us sane at work and motivated. If I want to spend happy money, the last thing I want is a bunch of emails explaining to me why the situation went wrong and letters telling me when my coffee table will be sent out a la amazon style before X'mas. I suspect lots of refunds and the recent letters and coffee table book was meant to keep us happy.

http://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286&highlight=shirt

Ring times were important but at least pending owners can wear this every weekend before the car comes.

To me, they are very good cars. I can't use 30% of the power and if money permits, I would want to own 458, Aventador and MP4.

Then again, for me, the last McLaren great but the best McLaren is always the next one.

For me, we should all stop searching for the next reviews showing which car is better than which but spend more time enjoying the hard earned money we spent on a car. Go motoring instead of comparing and thinking too deep. A constructive discussion is great but not beyond a certain point. I truly mean it they are both great cars. Styling, sound, sensory, handling, marque, history steers me over to 458. I find the Mc styled in a classic manner as well as the Aventador (Diablo's 80s/90s look) and I like the look of the 458 that's it. It's good enough a reason to end my comparison.

It will be interesting to see how Mega Mac compares to the Enzo replacement. War is on and car buyers only stand to benefit.

 

yes,it was a cheap shot by me Cal,im sure you will enjoy your car,have fun!!

 

Really funny! If that's all McLaren future owners need to keep calm while they wait for their car..... ;-)

 

Andy C, alrighty, nothing personal and peace. If I had ever made any comment that had came across as offensive and personal, kindly excuse me. As you well know, I bought the 458 and had my deposit for a MP4-12C for a good reason. If I didn't like the car, I wouldn't have plunged on one.

Overall, 458 may not be as much of a game changer, despite it being 2 gen s ahead of 430 coined by a few. The MP4 was a clean sheet with no legacy and hang up so it has to be a ground breaking car. It is controversial for a good reason, that it poses credible threat to Fezza. With that said, I truly hope positive competition will benefit no one but constructive intellects like your good self and all those on this forums.

Check this out:

http://www.gtspirit.com/2011/10/24/video-mclaren-mp4-12c-sets-72800-nurburgring-lap/

Amazing. The war continues Fezza, Macca, Nissan and Porsche.

 

never owned one... don't mind owning one and don't have a clue who came up with the t shirt. Nice souvenir though for a crack but wondering what would happen if I were to throw it on while attending a Fezza's club event. Fun. Of course I would still show up in my 458. Funny t shirt.

 

Thanks CAL,did check that out,very bad jouralism,if you were a bystander it might give the wrong impression,because everyone know that HVS is 10 to 15 seconds slower round the ring than factory laps,and these guys are comparing factory laps against his.
i think ive just set myself up for being shot down now.
PS,never seen it as a war,i think all parties spending this sort of cash want the best

 

Auto Express magazine in the UK have just rated the 458 Italia as their performance car of the year 2011 (having won it last year as well!)

The McLaren MP4-12C came in fifth:

1) Ferrari 458 Italia (Review: http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/performance_car_of_the_year/274192/ferrari_458_italia.html )
2) Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe
3) Porsche Cayman R;
4) Aston Martin V8 Vantage S
5) McLaren MP4-12C (Review: http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/performance_car_of_the_year/273949/mclaren_mp412c.html )

Supporting what Tiff Needell and Jason Plato said, Auto Express said of the 12C in thier review:

"The MP4-12C is a towering achievement, but it’s missing one vital commodity – the pure ability to thrill.

You get your kicks from the McLaren in a different way to the other cars in our line-up. Unlike the Ferrari, Mercedes or Jaguar, it’s not designed for the driver to switch off the electronic aids and play the hooligan on track. It only wants to be driven one way; smoothly and fast......

.......However, the clever Brake Steer system (which applies the brakes to the inside rear wheel to prevent slip and contain understeer) detracts from the driving experience, rather than adding to it. And turning it off isn't exactly encouraged by the complicated electronics."

 

From what Ive read and seen I agree with you 100%. I think Mclaren overhyped the car. Its an amazing machine but the looks dont really do it for me and the interior on the 458 seems much higher quality and just plain nicer looking in my opinion. I would also take a Gallardo over the Mclaren to be honest. This is of course without driving any of the 3 so maybe it would be different if I drove them. I doubt it though because the 458 is a dream car to me and I would not even need to drive the other cars because the look, sound, and quality of the ferrari would win me over regardless of the drive. You cant go wrong with either car and the times are so close that neither car has an advantage there.

 

We have talked about it before, but I prefer mid-engined track cars for their turn-in and the speed you can carry into a turn. That's the most exciting part for me. Another thing, I am looking for a "dual" car: drive to the track without a headache and drive it on the track without one, too. I used my scud as a dedicated track car, but it does not work for me.

 

I don't understand what's so hard to understand about not liking lies? I don't get it.

 

Again, I agree with you: you don't know what you are talking about.

 

English isn't your first language, is it?

Look, i don't see it as my job to try to "convince" you of the merits of the 458 (over the McLaren, or any other car). I'm more than satisfied with my decision, which is the right one for me, based on information and my own experiences. In that sense, YES ... i know exactly what i'm talking about I just didn't weigh reviews by journalists very heavily in my decision process

Now, I know you're desperately trying to find that "authority figure" that you can trust ... be it a manufacturer, journalist, or internet poster ... who can tell you which car to buy. I do agree with you .. I'm most definitely NOT your guy

 

What if they all "lie" ??

What if manufacturers are found ... all of them ... to stretch the truth, or present performance metrics & results in the most favorable light, under conditions that are just shy of impossible to achieve for mere mortals?

What if journalists are found ... all of them ... to be biased, with financially-motivated agendas?

What will you do, when your sole (or, most important) selection criterion for an auto purchase is nullified, thusly? Never purchase a car again?

Have you no recourse ... can you not decide for yourself, which car you like? And not give a crap about what anyone else thinks?