Another 308 with issues starting

Hi All,
Did many searches and they led to all the things I've tried below but I'm hoping that somewhere there is a clue that I have missed in all the threads I have read so far.

history:

81 308 GTSi I have had for almost a year. Love the car. Had Belts, clutch, water pump etc all replaced about 2 years ago and I have done the Birdman Fuse box, new steering rack, QA1 Coilovers and full brake overhaul. Every once in a while if I forgot to put it on the battery tender it would not start then end of last year the trickle was not enough and I would have to do a charge from my big box to get it going. I wanted a different brand but to get local and quickly I got a red top Optima. Started fine for a month. Was out with the wife having lunch and went to start and just the dreaded click. Rocking it in gear etc I probably tried 10 more times. Called a friend to bring a jump box and opened the hood to get to the battery. Wiggled all the wires and the negative cut off and on a whim turned the key and voila started immediately. Started fine the next week or so (maybe 10 times) then pulled it out of the garage Saturday to adjust the drivers door locking mechanism and it would not start to move it back in. Battery was fine but a little low. No amount of charge helped. Probably tried 20 times as I poked and prodded and wiggled wires. Battery cables look good but I cleaned and used marine corosion block on the connections. No change. Got a cig light volt meter and it reads 12.5 then drops to 11 while trying to start (click and I hear the fuel pump). I took off the engine ground strap and it was grimy but looked good so I dropped it in my ultrasonic cleaner with some degreaser. Removed the front ground which looks great and cleaned up all the connections (everything has been getting the marine corosion treatment as I go through connections). At this point for giggles I check that I have continuity on my multimeter from the engine post to the chassis post at the engine ground (even though I have not put that ground strap back on yet). It is making a connection through other cables, bolts or who knows what so I give the key a turn and she starts right up!!! Awesome. No idea why so I turn it off immediately. clean up and dry out my now nice and clean engine ground strap and install and you guessed it.... click no start. I run an extra 10 gauge wire from the Neg terminal to front ground (no change) I verify I am getting 12.5v to the hot terminal on my battery solenoid. Pull clean and treat the connectors, no change. I remove the white trigger wire from the solenoid and run a long lead from it (probably 12 feet of gauge 14) to the cabin so I can test with my multimeter and I am getting about 9.5 volts when I try and start. Put it all back and under the car with my hand on the starter and my son turning the key I hear the click and feel the click. Run a 10 gauge wire direct from the battery positive to the solenoid trigger spade and hear and feel a much stronger click but the starter still does not turn the engine at all. At this point it HAS to be the starter right? So tonight I pull the starter and bench test it with jumper cables from the battery and it engages and spins like mad. Holding it down on the ground it sure feels strong (but what do I know its the first starter I've ever pulled and tested.) I might take it somewhere tomorrow or Saturday to a local garage to find if there is a better way to officially test it but I am stumped. I was thinking about ordering a gear reduction starter (I still might) but I would hate to go through the expense and wait time with the car blocking my garage to find it didn't work either. What am I missing?

I never intended to write War and Peace as a post so thanks to all that have suffered through it and thanks doubly for anyone with advice!

 

Just some friendly advise, I'd suggest some editing to your post with shorter sentences, some paragraphs and maybe dot points. A large slab of text can be off putting and scare people away. It might help you get more responses. I'm still digesting it before I can provide any input. All the best. BB

 

Hi Brock,
Yes, I totally agree and I would try if that option were still available. It looks like the edit button goes away an hour or so after a post. I was frustrated last night. Most posts list things tried, but not necessarily order or details (like it randomly starting once with no rear ground strap in the middle of the process or voltage readings). My hope was that the extra detail would hilight where I went wrong. It Definitely could have been presented better!

Thanks for reading at any rate!
Jay

 

Poor/corroded connection at solenoid to starter.

Had the same symptoms. Pulled the starter with the intent to replace it.
On the bench I noticed the corroded connection on the solenoid output to starter motor connection.
Cleaned connection, mounted starter in vice and verified with 12v it worked and reinstalled, no problems since!!

 

This is normal (when the battery is supplying a lot of current, the voltage "droops" down due to the internal resistance of the battery). If the starter motor actually runs, it would droop down even lower to 9~10V maybe. As Dockboy said, investigate the connections at the starter solenoid and the voltage reaching the solenoid (the white wire, terminal 50) -- if it goes to +11V but the solenoid doesn't engage = bad sign for solenoid itself. If it doesn't go to the same +11V (like at the cig lighter) = upstream problem (bad ignition switch, bad connection somewhere, etc.).

 

Hi Jay, I feel your pain, I just went through a similar issue. A couple of things i learnt along the way.
1. starter motors ground out through the brushes. So worn brushes or brushes worn on an angle may not ground properly when starting. Mine were the later, so i replaced them (made no difference)
2. there is no relay for the starter circuit, so the +12v from the ignition switch runs all the way to the starter motor. I was getting some voltage drop so installed a relay near the starter pulling +12v from the heavy battery cable (made no difference)
3. bench tested the starter, and it ran fine for about 50 cycles. But was told by my mechanic friend that without load on the pinion gear, its not a realistic test. So that proved nothing.
4. I disassembled the starter, checked all the bushes and bearings, the planetary gears, tested the winding on the start motor side. All tested fine.
5. I wanted to check the heavy terminals inside the starter solenoid, but that Bosch unit cannot be pulled apart. I had read that you can get erosion from the high amps across those terminals. After lots of searching I found a replacement solenoid.
This resolved the issue, its been several weeks now without any sign of the dreaded "click no start" issue.
Hope that helps.
BB

 

I had an issue when I first had my QV where the engine would turn over fine but not start. It would bump fine so after checking everything possible, I replaced the starter and have not had any issues since. I can only surmise that the starter was pulling too much load through faulty windings.

 

Hi Brock (And everyone)
Grateful for the replies. Sounds like you have gone into this much further than I am comfortable with my skills. Since I had it out already, I took the starter to a local auto electric shop. They bench tested it and said it was a "little sluggish" and recommended I leave it for their rebuilder to take a look at. His response today was "loose and slow" but he could rebuild it. I was hoping to avoid unnecessary expense but since it is now out I have ordered a gear reduction starter from ferraristarters.com. The reviews from those that have done it sound great.

That being said I really like the idea of adding a relay to bring power to the solenoid directly from the big battery cable on the starter. I have seen a couple of posts about having done it but no step by step tutorials (especially for someone electrically challenged like mysef). Seems like I plug the white signal wire into the activation side of a relay then from there to ground. Another wire from the power terminal of the starter to the switch side of the relay then from there to the spade terminal on the starter. Thats as far as my understanding of relays goes. Do you (or anyone) have a recommendation for a relay suitable and or a wiring diagram if I am incorrect above?

Thanks,
Jay

 

So in case anyone finds this thread in the future I thought this YouTube vid (for a Porsche) was very informative about wiring a starter relay into a car that doesn't have one:



Jay

 

Yay! 10 starts in a row this AM no issues.

New starter from Ferraristarters.com showed up last night (a day earlier than expected). Much smaller than original. Test fit showed I needed to clock the starter in the mounting bracket by one hole. Second test fit got it installed in 5 min or less. Everything lines up well.

Then I took off to hook up wiring. 40 year old thick cables are no where near pliant. Much swearing and thankfully a second set of hands from my son got the starter bolts started with cables connected. Snugged right up and started immediately with a turn of the key. the heavy cables were so hard to maneuver and I was unable to get another ring on there so I did not add the relay I purchased. If I need to get in there again I will take the 2 heavy duty power cables and connect them to a single more flexible line. That will allow me to get power from the relay at this connection and hopefully move the starter into position easier. Hope I never have to.

Thanks all.

 

Nice one! What you can try in future is a heat gun on lower setting and give the heavy cable a warm up. You'd be surprised how much more compliant they become (at least while they are warm). I do this with power leads that don't roll up neatly (yes, I'm very fussy). Just leave them bake on the driveway on a hot day for a few hours, then they roll up very neatly. BB

 

Ha! 3 weeks of perfect starts. Even took it to the Petersen Museum a week ago for the Enzo cruise in (which was fantastic BTW....)

I still hadn't had the chance to have a professional alignment after doing all the suspension bushings, coil overs and steering rack. I found time Thursday where someone was able to get it on the rack... got that "can you please give us a call as soon as you can" text 2 hours later. They had backed it on and done the rear, pulled it out and turned around to get the front and when the tech went to give it a test drive..... click... I run over and its on their heavy duty charger/jump box. Like when it all started 2 months ago I fiddled with wires (the battery, tight, the battery cutoff by the headlight etc) and after maybe 10 tries it started. Needed a slight tweak after the test drive to center the steering wheel and kept it running the whole time. Got it safely back home and in the garage and over the last couple days have tried at least 10 times and 1 random start, the rest just the dreaded click.

When I was originally diagnosing I saw that the white wire on the starter was getting approx 9.5 volts when turning the key. Could that be the electrical ignition switch just not passing enough voltage on to the starter? Looks like otherwise I need to add that hard start relay after all.

So bummed.

Jay

 

Just when you thought you were out....you get pulled back in!
As suggested in my post above, and by others. The starter system has no relay, so an easy first job is to install one so your new starter motor is getting the full +12v
BB

 

" The starter system has no relay"

There is no such thing as a starter circuit without a relay. Why would you need a second one?

 

Did you by any chance watch the video I posted a couple weeks ago above? I didn't see a relay anywhere in the circuit (on my 308) and will add one similar to the vintage Porsche one above.

 

The starter solenoid is a relay. It also happens to operate the gear as well.

 

What? I think you've got crossed wires here (sorry for the bad pun!). A starter solenoid is not a relay in the context of this discussion or issue. We are talking about the voltage delivered by the IGN START wire from the ignition switch. At least in 308QV's, this wire runs direct from the starter switch to the solenoid. there is no relay in line. You can encounter voltage drop across a long run especially with older wiring. The power required to trigger a small relay contact is much less than what is required to trigger a start solenoid contact. Hence a relay placed in line directing battery voltage to the solenoid can remedy some situations.

 

So the 9.5v that I get at the white trigger wire was not enough to reliably run my original starter (solenoid) nor is it now enough to trigger my brand new gear reduction starter. When it was apart I tested that trigger wire firing a 12v automotive relay and it seemed to work great. I got lazy and when the straight starter replacement seemed to work 100% I let it be. I plan to wire it up so the signal wire fires the relay then the relay gives the full 12 volts from the battery + terminal of the starter over to the solenoid side.

 

You stated there is no relay. There is in fact a relay.
The cars were designed with no other relay and if in good condition require no additional relay.
I'd fix the bad connection, bad switch or bad solenoid. Not add additional parts. I have fixed them professionally for 46 years and its how I do it.

Its a simple diagnosis and a simple fix. Even the ignition switch is not a big deal.

 

Cool, so back to todays question where I was hoping to find if anyone had any suggestions. All other wiring looks OK and I have a new Birdman fuse block. Other than the ignition switch what else should I be testing to see why I'm only getting 9.5 to the white starter wire (I am basically electrically illiterate if you can't tell.... but willing to learn!)

Thanks!
Jay

 

I believe that that white start command wire passes thru a connector near the ignition coils -- have you tried measuring there (you should be able to touch the metal back ends of the wire terminal with your meter probes)? Also, just unplugging/replugging it wouldn't hurt (and would give you a chance to look for any corrosion and make sure the female spade is "tight" on the male spade -- squeeze the female terminal sides a little more closed, if necessary).

But just to be clear are you saying that: With everything plugged in, and the key in Pos III (start), you measure 11V at the cigarette lighter, but only 9.5V at terminal 50 (the plugged in white wire) of the starter solenoid and the solenoid does not engage?

 

To answer your first question, I have not seen or found any connection for the white wire. I assumed it came straight back from the ignition switch to the starter so I never looked for one. Will definitely check that out! I have cleaned and treated the grounds and they seem to be making good connection. Other than cleaning connections at the starter when I replaced it that is all I have touched.

Second question is Yes. 11 at the cigarette lighter and 9.5 at the white wire (unplugged from the starter) when turning the key all the way to start (pos3). I was unable to test while the white wire was connected to the starter.

The thing that kills me is that it must be right on the edge. Sometimes it’s enough to fire the starter and sometimes not. And that it waited 3 weeks after replacing the starter to start acting up again.
Thanks!
Jay

 

Measuring the white wire voltage when it is disconnected from the solenoid terminal 50 is meaningless -- because the current is zero (i.e., you can have a bad connection somewhere, like hundreds or even thousands of Ohms, and it will still measure a high voltage). Measuring with things disconnected can only detect a complete break (infinite Ohms). You need to measure things with everything connected. If you need to make a little spade wire jumper wire network, do so. Same thing if you make voltage measurements of the white wire at the connector near the ignition coils (or at the cigarette lighter) -- everything has to be plugged in.

 

Interesting. I did mention that I was electrically illiterate right ;c). Well sounds like I’ve got even more to check out than I had hoped.

thanks!
Jay

 

If the wiring route on your 308 is the same as a 328 which I have and have had the dreaded starter click issue, check the plug-in connecters behind the passenger footwell. Find the white wire and clean the spade. On my 328 the white wire is located in the right vertical connector behind the plate that you unscrew to get at all the connecters.

If the wiring on you 308 differs from a 328, then disregard what I have said. Someone on this forum who is more knowledgeable about the wiring would know if the wiring is the same.