Another broken timing belt thread

Their could be other variables to this and other belts failing such as a oil leak damaging them, you can even spill oil on a timing belt putting oil in your car which is why I always use a rag under the sump tank fill neck which is right above the t belt cover.

You also have risks over changing the belts, belts not tensioned properly or other mistakes from the tensioners and so forth, a brand new belt that is flawed or has been sitting on a shelf longer than the belts have been on the car you are replacing, I've never heard of Fparts dealers throwing out new belts sitting on a shelf after a certain period of time

 

Exactly, A "new belt" may be new to your car but could have been made in 1987. How many times do we hear how we need to change them based on time and not just milage. How many examples have we heard about where the owners have belt changes done with just 3000 miles on them because it has been over 5 years.

Plan: from now on all belts should have a lot number printed on them so a born on date can be researched before they are installed on your car. Not a date on the box they are shoved in but on the belt itself.

Someone tell be why this would be a bad idea? Tell me why this should NOT be done.

 

I have pics of my car with the engine out and on the bench with no belts on the cam pulleys. I have pics of the ceiling looking up from underneath the car where the engine is supposed to be. I am POSITIVE that the belts were changed. Nothing like a visual audit of the process.

 

Or how old THOSE belts were then.

 

And THAT'S the question that has always bothered me. Unless they only age after installation, this is huge.

Gary

 

I don't know how you Americans do it, in the UK I change mine every three years, I'd rather fork out the price of changing belts than changing engines!!

 

Visual aids would help public opinion. For instance, putting the failed belt from the TR in this thread side by side with a brand new belt would make a great photo to show how much, if any, stretch occurs over time to failure, condition of failed versus new, etc.

 

I believe they break. I have seen them break. I have heard the stories. I know.

I have had mine changed twice in the past 8 years and 40,000 miles. I don't want to risk it.

BUT:

If age is such a serious factor, we MUST consider the age of the belts that are being installed, right? The clock doesn't start once they touch the car. Old is old, on or off. Obviously, if five years is too long to leave them on a car that is barely being used, then they should be tossed of the shelf at the parts store too after the same amount of time. Someone tell me where I am off base with all of this time thing and "new" belts.

I guess I have something else to worry about now. My belts were changed in Mar 04, but how do I know that the belts weren't made in 1989?

Something to think about...

 

The price you pay is likely 1/3rd the price in the US.

Here, one can go 10 years between belt changes on a 308 (etc), blow the engine, buy and install a new engine, and turn a profit from the skipping of 3 services and parting out what's left of the old motor. Yes, it's insane, but it goes with the territory.

Ken

 

the belts must have a shelf life and given the cost of labor in replacing them that is huge...also a huge factor as towhether they will last 3 years or 5 years...clearly the blets will age much faster on the car and the heat and revs and all but still, where do we get our belts to be sure they are truly fresh stock...I doubt they are thrown off the shelf after three years....do we buy from a high seller like T rutlands...the F-dealer...from a regular autoparts store that is moving these belts for a mitsubishi or whatever other car these belts fit...c'mon if we are going to be paranoid about the belts ( and we should ) let's really be paranoid...where can we get fresh belts? ( I shudder to think if the belts look like new after being removed from a car after three years, would someone cad resell them as new --ugh!) you'd think the belts would have a "born on" date like my beer does.

 

Yea, but in the UK you can get the T-belts on a TR or Boxer changed for $1k, whereas here in the colonies it can cost $6k+.

 

Since we are having this post about cost, what is the typical price of the following: 308/348/355/360/TR/550. Do all require engine out? I'm guessing Dealer vs indenpendent could be as high as 50%?

 

An indelible "born on" date on the belts would put this topic to bed forever.

NO reason why it should not be done. NONE. ZERO.

 

Agreed,
Now who is going to bell the cat(DAYCO, et al)?

 

I think the bottom line is that most belts will last 10+ years, but a few will not. If I had a fleet of 3X8's, I might opt to change belts every 10 years figuring the money I saved not changing them at five would more than compensate the cost of motor damage should one fail at 9 years. But I only have one 328 that I would rather not ever have to have the motor rebuilt, so I'll change them every 5 years.

All the talk about bogus mainenance documentation makes me think it's better to buy a car due for service (for less of course) and have it done yourself so you can be sure it was indeed done.

Dave

 

We are getting hosed here in the colonies!!!

 

Good idea but a whiner in the past on this site has complained about specific people here who post pics of cars undergoing repairs that are not their own personal cars even if the owner doesnt care. Posting a pic of a customers engine apparently gets this guys undies in a knot and has prevented some fairly helpfull threads from being started as a result. Personally I think whiners like him need to get punched out because one of the purposes of this site is to help others. I say post the pics of the TR belt, I would like to see it.

 

I'm in your corner, Newman. I want to see if the TR timing belt in question stretched. There have been a couple of seminal posters on FChat who have adamantly insisted that Ferrari timing belts don't stretch in the least no matter how old...and I just don't buy it.

Show people a picture of how much a timing belt stretches and wears after 1 year, 2 years, 3 years, 5 years, 10 years (or various milages) compared to a new belt and pretty soon people will catch on to how much risk is involved in delaying timing belt changes.

Also, Dr. Cosgrove makes a very salient point about the true age of a belt involving shelf life as well as installation life, but we'd probably need to factor in the difference in stresses (doable with enough data) to figure out how much shelf life matters. Since belts in the box on a shelf in a store aren't under tension, out in the weather, getting oil and engine cleaner fluid on them, the aging for the shelf life of timing belts is bound to be different than the aging once installed.

That being said, a "new" timing belt stored in a 130 degree Kuwaiti desert warehouse is going to be different than the shelf life of a belt stored inside a climate-controlled warehouse in North Carolina.

With so many factors in play, pictorial examples will surely help cut to the chase, though.

 

Or on a Ferrari that is never driven and sits in a climate controlled garage.

Experts here recommend new ones on those after X years despite the milage. A while back we ran a thread on whether or not to change tensioners with the belts. I said always (why not). I was informed by an expert that it is a complete waste of money in many cases. They are apparently not "inexpensive" on some models. We were told that many of his belt change customers are doing so not because of age but because of time, pointing out that said cars are rarely driven so the tensioners are still just fine and can be left alone during the belt change. Now I know that THESE Ferraris are not parked outside 24/7 where the environment can affect them. Those belts, with the exception of being under tension, are sitting inside nice and warm and dry pretty much all the time. Just like a shelf.

So, if THOSE belts must come off after 3-5 years why do the ones on the shelf over 5 years old not need to be pitched out too?

 

Good points, but please consider that the timing belts in boxes sitting on store shelves aren't under tension.

What I'd like to see would be for RifleDriver and FerrariFixer and FerrariOldMan (and others who have access to large numbers of used belts) would be to show pictorially how much stretch occurs in the belts being changed (presumably due to the tensioners/tension) versus new belts.

Belts on the shelf are going to age, but they shouldn't stretch due to tension (because obviously they aren't stored in boxes under tension)...so shelf age should be at a different pace, from my way of thinking, than age once installed under tension in the car.

 

"A number of us in the business with real life experience to the contrary were called liars and we were just attempting to scare owners to line our pockets. "

Well said Raster Man Brian !

Seems the current thinking is coming around and dealing with the logic that has been handed out.

The belt stretch is quite minimal, it is the age of the rubber that is the major factor. Very rare that I see a belt "break", yet fairly common to see teeth pealed off the belts. The "Arimid" or "Kevlar" belting in the belts keep the stretch to a minimum but the weak point is where the tooth is molded to the flat belt. As Brian said they peal the teeth off at the crank pulley. Most common failure I have seen is when the starter first engauges.

The 348 IMSA engine I built (Cosworth Indy cam profile) is a 3 hour engine due to belt stretch and resulting cam timing changes. This is an extreeme example as the lobe ramps and total lift are obsurd but the added torque required to turn the cams results in a VERY short life for the belts.

There are many factors to look at when discussing the belts. Starting with the 355's the belt design was changed to one that has teeth that flare out and grip the pulley better when the tooth is compressed in the gear (note the tooth design vs the older TR and 308 / 348 style). Harmonics, heat, cam rotating torque 2v vs 4v vs 5v, aluminum engine growth, static set tensioners vs heat expanding tensioners, drive gear bearing wear, oil coolant and dirt contamination, cog gear wear as these cars age (how about the plastic 308 gears?)............ And there are still debates about letting these belts go longer than the engineers at Ferrari suggest? How many of the folks discussing longer change intervals have began to look at the above factors not to mention the mirad of others not even mentioned. As all of these gears / parts wear the debate should start to be about how much sooner than the recommended interval should they be changed. As Brian so wisely stated, it doesnt much matter from our point of view. It does make the job more enjoyable if the customer has a more positive feeling about the car when they can drive it TO and FROM the shop. Simply slip belts on and bolt it back together, nope, thats not enough!

Dave

PS, Brian, thanks for the signature, caught me on a good day!

 

Brian/Dave (Good to hear from you again, Dave), one story that I have been told is that cars that sit up for a long time are more likely to have belt problems than those that are driven (at least a little bit) regularly. Have you found this to be true in your experience?

Dale

 

You guys are freak'n me out. I purchased my TR in Nov 2005; and have put about 2800 miles on it since. Bobileff (CA) did the belts in March 2005; with only transport miles prior to my purchase through a broker for the Penske dealer (LV). They must have bought it from Bobileff ??? Anyway, my TR runs like a top- no skips, smoke or any other problems....except the vibration in the steering wheel at high speeds. That said, are there any warning signs of a problem with the belts? I drive this car just about every day and will probably put 7500 miles a year on it. What should be my timeframes for belt changes?

FYI - In March 2005, Bobileff charged about $2100 (parts and labor) for the Belt portion of the work they did. (The engine removal was included in this price)

Bill