Another broken timing belt thread

Finally got the house done and have a life again, good to be back!

Yes, belts that get flexed and used seem to stay a bit more flexible. I see less failures with these than garage queens.

Dave

 

With all due respect I don't think this is the case at all. I have followed and even started some of these threads, and I don't think you or any other of the profesionals have ever been called liars. What we laymen have been asking is for real experiences from owners and what happened to precipitate the failure.
Everybody has different conditions that they are conserned about. My cars for example spend a lot of dormant time in the garage. I would like to know what the plus and negative is regarding the belts for a low milege car that doesn't get driven very much. All I seem to get in answer, is blasted for not driving the car enough. This isn't an answer to the question.

Getting some coolant on the belts is said to be a bad thing. Well what do you do, replace the belts imediately if you splash some coolant or oil on them or do you replace them in three years? Does the same logic apply to a 1983 308 as it does to a 550?

The facts of these newer threads seem to indicate that there is not really any ryme or reason to these failures. High milege belts break and so do some low milege belts. Whats the reasons? My 308 gets started once or twice a month. Will that help to prevent belt fatigue and set? It is a fact that Ferrari's get driven seldom as a rule, so what are the affects on the belts and what should someone do to prevent pemature failure?

 

No warning signs that I have ever seen.

I do not remember what the prices of tensioner bearings and belts were in 05 but lets take todays prices as an example. Figure $640 plus or minus for T belts and bearings depending on how friendly you are with a parts guy, that leaves $1300 after shipping, tax, shop supplies, etc. I am getting older and a bit slower but even in my prime 13 hrs for engine R & R (figured at $100/ hr) and T belt install, well........ the air tools must have been screaming! This figures that the alt. and A/C belts were reused, no cam timing done, no gaskets replaced........ I think the break down of the paper work was not quite accurate. I have not done a quickie on a TR nor will I so I am not the one to ask regarding this.

No need to freak out, just service it properly as it was designed to get and they are incredibly reliable after the known gremlins are sorted out. Common thought puts the change interval at 5 yrs. A few years ago Ferrari changed their recomondation to 3 yrs. Are they figuring in job security, component wear, stock increase from parts sales? A TSB was handed to me many years ago that 512TR in Europe ( Not Valid for USA - CH) were suggested to get them at 3 years, 24800 miles for the "new" belt and 2 yrs 18600 miles for the old number belt. I was told to keep this hidden in a manual because it did not meet the Fed. yearly maintainance cost index. What did the engineers know back then? Anyones guess, I have not seen an uncommon amount of failures using the 5 yr figure.

Dave

 

Much of it could be just luck having a bad quality belt or something else such as a rock or anything get caught up in the cam drive system.

Leaving a car sit and not driving it enough increases your chances IMO, just starting it up and letting it idle for 15minutes is not enough either, the car should be run hard to clean out carbon which can gum up valves as well, carbon in the valve guides could create more stress on the belts as well from the extra force placed on them or even a piece of carbon stuck in a valve, carbon on the pistons will make them much hotter as well transfering heat to the heads and belts.

I think cars driven once a month at least for a few hours and driven hard to clean things out and get the oil hot to evaporate all the water in the crankcase and trans plus it keeps the belts flexible will have the least risk of failure for belts.

 

in my research to make the new timing belt system for the 308's i was looking to address this very problem. what i found out is very simple, belt construction and design is the biggest contributing factor to the life of these belts. the inner belt of aramid or isoran fibers is a wound thread of three fibers these are then wound around a drum much like thread on a spool. this spool of fibers is then 'coated' (the accutual proccess is not available to the public) with the rubber backing. the inner toothed side is also constructed of a fiber mesh that is embeded with rubber that is joined to the belt backing thru yet another process. so in the end we have a belt.

the teeth of the belt are the biggest area of concern, so much so that the industry has moved on from the trapazoidal design back in 1977. think about it, 29yrs ago the industry knew the limitations and improved on it. so what is the problem? the shape of the tooth produces very high stress risers where the tooth trough meets the belt backing, becouse of this it will sheer teeth. think of it like pulling up the corner of a loose tile. the updated tooth design is now a curvelinear one, there is no longer a sharp edge for the gear to stress the tooth and the layout provides greater surface area to spreed out the load.

as to why some belts go longer than others? envioroment is one and the handleing of the belt is another. the belts should never be bent past the acceptable radius of the backing. but how should we know what that is? rule of thumb, no smaler than the pully dia of the engine its going onto. otherwise you risk 'breaking' the inner belt fibers and shortinging the life of the belt. due to the stress on the teeth and the variation in construction i.e. acceptable percentages. the law of averages comes into play, hence the 3yr rule. sure you'll get belts going past there service life but why risk it?

i hope that as answered some questions, incedently the newer belt design has a service life twice that of the old one. good thing technology moves forward.

 

I wonder, is there a manuf. code on these belts that , if decoded, would give us the date of manufacture.

With an expiration date, we could put in a belt and simply mark our calender for replacement and/ also inform the next owner etc. -- takes all the guess work out. Yes, the tensioners fail, etc. and a myriad of other belt failure issues, but those are not really belt failure issues but tensioner failures...we are really dicussing the belt sitting ont eh car i the garage with only a few thou. miles but 5 years! DO you need to change or not? How was the belt to start off with when installed?

 

Will your new pulley set up work on a carbed BB motor?

 

i'm not faimilar with the BB motor but if it shares the same dia of pulleys with the 308 then it is doable as i still have stock. i can look into it, i would need to see the cam and drive pullies so i could do it.

 

I purchased my car a few years back noting that the 30K service was done at 26K miles. Well 6K miles later it had to be done again (PROPERLY!!). I lost HP and brought it in. It seems I slipped a tooth on my left back exhaust and was off by about two teeth. Thank god the valves/engine were still in great shape. It appeared from my examination after the engine was out that there were many things that the docs said was done, that were never done. For example, tensioners were rusted! - never replaced, bearings leaking fluid, water pump leaking (re-built at 26K miles) - I chose to replace in entirety and not put back a re-built one, and engine mounts were crushed - what the F(*&&!!, and the belts were worn (after 6K miles - hard to believe), ohh and my fuel filter was plugged - AFTER 6K MILES!!!!!!!

Nevertheless, someone here posted that you should buy a car that needs the service and get it done yourself. I would have to agree. I would have liked to pay 10K less for the car and get it done myself, of couse after a PPI (pressure test, leak down test).

To top it all off, I purchased this car from a dealer that did not disclose a lot of info that would have detered me from buying the car. It is not till I pestered him a few years later that he gave it to me. I would like to mention the dealer, and the service provider, but I should not. They said something about client info.. that was junk, because when he finally faxed me the info he still left the client info on it...idiot!! Ontop of it all I had purchased a one year warranty on the car, and brought it in a few times...THEY never uncovered the problems I saw when I had the engine out only 5 months after warranty expired..... URRRRR!!!!

Brian, I am comming to you next, I am tired of this BS around the bay!!

 

As I said early on - we are all dealing with a bunch of typical used car dealers and it doesn't matter very much whose logo is on the front of the building.

 

That can happen, sadly......I like to deal with private owners, that helps...



3 HOURS, Dave? A NEW RECORD!!!!! LOL!


*salute*

I understand, IMSA race motor and all, still that's getting into dragster territory...


"Fill it back up, change to all new oil, bearings, and oh, yea, swap to new timing belts...."....awesome.

 

exactly.

Age alone MAY well be why some last 10 years and come out looking new and others rip teeth after 2 1/2 years.

 

So why do you pay so much, is the hourly rate astronomic or are you just ripped off, I paid £1800=$3345 this year and that was for cam belts, reconned water pump, new rubber hoses where needed, cam cover seal kit, and full service from an Indepedant.

 

Some do, some don't....my tech slips new belts and tensioners on with cam degree check for a $1,000.00, if that's all it needs......


Mine's a 308GTB....TRs are a whole differnt thing, of course!

 

Blimey Bub that's cheaper than Blighty

 

I help........

 

might check pt nos, the crank pulley will be different though.

 

Many American auto mechanics are unionised, and think they should make as much as a Lawyer. But even worse, they fabricate time and the amount of work they actually get done, and the shop they work for goes along. Someone said it matters not whose name is on the building, and that is rather true.

Lets say I work for Fo(name) and know my way around a F car. Manager gives me a 3X8 to service, and I put it up on the hoist. Well, this is straight time not flat time, so I am going to milk it. I write up a list of items and present it to the service manager, and he simply adds up the labor and parts. There is no reason to pay 40 hours labor to service these cars, its just milking the customer. But if they told many customers they could do the service for 10 to 15 hours labor, many may think they arent getting proper service? And if you were to peek in on the mechanic servicing your car, you would probably see him working on something other than your car.

 

Hey Glassman, with all do respect, your wrong on this one!

This horse has been beat to deat and still keeps coming back, looks much like the scared up gelding I have in the corral!

Paul, how long does it take you to do a "major service"? With the answer, list everything done on a major. Not a T-belt change, a Major service.
I know many things have changed since I left Minnesota but the amount of time required to properly service these cars doesnt get less with age. As things wear and the cars get older more time is required to inspect and repair the cars, yet the amount of time I charge has not changed since these cars were 5 yrs old. Hell, the 308QV that I used to mount 4 studded tires on and was used daily throughout the Minnesota winter has got to be so rusty now that it would be a chore to remove the wheels!
I am now doing majors for the second time around on the local cars here and am able to short cut many things. That is only due to the fact that the first time around they got the whole job done PROPERLY and on many it is not required to do everything after just 5 yrs. Use good parts, do the job right and there is a better than good chance many things can be skipped next time. Use gaskets stamped out of a Wheaties box and pay for it the next time.

Dave

 

Okay, first off I aint no he-man. I am soon going on 48 years old, my back hurts, I wear bi-focals, etc. But I been wrenching since I was 8 years old, worked on everything anyone would let me work on, from outboard motors to twin engine Aero Commanders. First 308 came not running. as I recall the first day, starting about 9:30 am:

Son helped me get rear deck lid off. I jacked it up, pulled the wheels, pulled the plugs, pulled the air cleaner, ran a leakdown. Removed the wheel wells, pulled the AC compressor, removed the cam belt covers, removed the cam covers, put it in time, checked the valve clearance, took off the belts and removed the cams. I dont recall the time period of events after that, but the next day I recall trying to troubleshoot the ignition, I took both distributors apart and cleaned them, all the way down to the advance mechanism. I had gotten back the rebuilt starter and put that in, got the steering column back in with the key switch that had been removed, and started putting the motor back together. I had it running again on day three. This also included finding a way to adapt a degree wheel to set the valve timing. I feel I wasted a lot of time learning, that with experience I wouldnt be wasting.

When I pulled the engine out, I started about 10:30am, again having to remove the deck lid. I had the engine on the floor and seperated from the gear box and the motor on an engine stand by 7:30 in the evening. I didnt find anything on the car hard to work on, other that figuring out how to get back in over the top of the engine. I found a friends 95 Camaro with a V-6 a lot harder to work on by a large margin, and so did our son on his Mazda. Put a timing belt in a Nissan Pathfinder V-6, or try a fuel bladder in the wing of an AeroCommander. Its just screws and nuts and bolts. Thats all a Ferrari is.

The second Ferrari is up on stands waiting for me to give it a full service. As soon as I have clear title I will try and photo document a full service, and will keep track of time. We'll see how I do. But I cant see a standard full service taking over 10 hours by an experienced and trained mechanic, unless they run into some troubles.

 

Unlike Kaliphornia, here in the midwest we have a outfit called the Teamsters. Every mechanic at every car dealership, and almost every independent is in the union, as are many of the parts counter men even at the parts houses like Napa. Thats the way it rolls, and outside of the west coast I believe the eastern half of the US is about the same. Either way, union or not the going shop rate around here has climbed to about $125 per hour. Thats at most independent shops. Yet I could go out to the airport and have a Cessna worked on for $25 an hour by a federally licensed mechanic, go figure.

As to how long it takes to do a full service, the next one will be my second on a carbed 308. I will photo document and time it from start to finish and we will see how long it takes. Other than help removing the rear deck, as before, I will work alone. But there are some caveats up front. I need to remove the rear header to exchange it with another I have, as it has a cracked tube. I wont count that time as I feel its a repair and not a part of a regular service. I also am thinking to replace the drive sprocket outer bearings, and do not think they would count either.

 

Good list, Brian. #4 and #11 together take me a long day (10 hours) and I've been doing this on carb 308's since the newest one was two years old!

'We will skip the recommended receiver/dryer replacement because no one does it at the majors."

I do include that simply because about half the cars that come through here (hot, humid Southeast) have had the dessicant bag blow up and have contaminated the system, which means removing the expansion valve and cleaning out the mesh inlet screen, part of the major, IMO.

I don't know how these "heros" do it when Ferrarioldman, Tim Stanford, Bill Pollard, David Castelhano, Ron Reineke and all the rest of my old(er) friends and colleagues seem to take the same amount of time that I do to go through this same list Brian has put up...

-Peter