Another Timing Belt Thread

Why would that be interesting??? Shouldn't a freaking T-belt last 60k miles??? They do on virtually every other car made today, actually a lot more, they just say change them at 60k or so. Even if the belt is 15 years old, with only 36k miles on it I would EXPECT it to look new...

I guess my expectations of a 1/4 million dollar car are just to dang high... Noises in 599's, major overhauls/services (that's what they seem like to a not yet F-car owner) at 15k miles and they cost $10k to $15k... That is all just ridiculous. Sounds like this 456 was treated like a nice but, dare I say it, REGULAR car...even better actually. Who would buy a Honda (even an S2000 that HAS to be revved to 7500+ rpm just to get it moving, or an NSX) and expect to do a T-belt, etc in less than 60k miles??? The S2000 costs less than the sales tax on a 456, doesn't this all seem a little odd?

Am I totally out of touch on this, or did I miss something? Do all F-car owners have so much money that $15k services every 15k miles seems NORMAL and acceptable? That is $1/mile just in SERVICE! That makes any British car look like a steal!

I am not trying to stir the pot here, just curious. Does the owners manual recommend that you change the T-belt and whatever else at 15k miles? I think it is 50k miles on 928's or 7 years (I need to do two of my cars soon...doubt I will though, climate controlled garage low miles.) Again, I am not trying to upset anyone here, but as a future 400 and 456 owner, I would like to know what I am getting into before I jump in the boiling pot. There are plenty of P-car guys that do the same thing with their cars, but most of us just drive them and when we get to 10 years or 50k miles we start to think about T-belts and water pumps (easy to do along w/ the belt, SUCK if you have to go in a year later and do them, labor costs are the same).

Thanks guys,
James
Austin, TX

 

The car is twelve years old. If I planned on driving that car, I'd change the timing belt regardless of mileage based solely on age.

I recently changed the timing belt in my 2001 Audi at 45,000 miles. The dealer told me they recommend changing it every 50,000 miles, but that at five years you're pushing it. I didn't argue - timing belt issues can lead to some serious problems, and leaving them unchecked is the very definition of "deferred maintenance."

 

Ferrari recommend the timing belts are changed every 3 years or 18k miles, which ever comes first.

Difference between your V12 456 and Audi timing intervals is the stress levels will be different - 442bhp and lots of torque can't help belt life, so if in doubt change.

When I was purchasing mine, one thing everybody steered me to was checking the cars had their belts changed, otherwise you don't know what bill is around the corner. A failure will cause a lot of damage!

Also from the service history front, I once was refused a test drive in a car I was really interested in because the dealer didn't know when the belts had last been changed.

 

Yea, I DID mention that age plays a role and that for me with a climate controlled garage and the very stable weather patterns in TX 7 years is that age for me. I agree at 12 years it is time, but it SHOULD still look BRAND NEW...you can't see the age deterioration with you EYES, only the mileage wear and tear will be visibly apparent. Well, let me rephrase, if you can see the AGE related break down then it is in REALLY BAD SHAPE.

James

 

That was the answer I was looking for. 3 years 18k miles. That sounds like Ferrari trying to drum up business for their techs to me. That is a CRAZY short interval. I agree more HP, more heat, less life, but 3 years/18k miles is WAY SHORT! I also understand (same w/ the 928's) that if you break a T-belt heaven help you! You are pretty much looking at a whole new and very expensive (though not Ferrari expensive) motor.

So, how to the 3X8's compare on the belt change front? WAY less HP but located in the back where heat soak is likely to be worse...same time mile requirement?

James
Austin, TX

 

Actually, horsepower and torque have nearly nothing to do with belt life. M

 

I had a Porsche 944. The belt started slapping every 30K like clockwork.

 

How about rpm range of the motors? Most people drive their hondas around at 2-3000 rpm, whereas i hope most ferrari owners run at least double that. At the very least this would shorten the life of the timing belt tensioner bearing.

 

I think the recommended is 3yrs or around 37500 miles, or thereabouts, i.e. max 3yrs of full motoring or mileage if that comes first. The prob is that very very few folks do that mileage and often they may only do a very few miles...not uncommon to do zero if in storage. As rubber deteriates particularly if left unused or in poor conditions, you will always be told 'i told you so' if one breaks over 5yrs, or even 3 for that matter. It should in most places be fine to go to 4-5yrs I would have thought...it is though I think 100% owners decision as you live with the issues if they occur...average car, replacement new engine £2-5k, most 2nd hand replacement ferrari engines £8-10k+, and new ones or strip downs, well ouch!

The belts are surely no more stressed than most cars, in fact they are far less stressed than most jap cars etc that spin 8-9k+ rpm. What makes me laugh is that it's not uncommon for folks to get stressed out about belt changes or the cost of them, and the dealers push them like mad, but then the tensioner bearings often are not changed at the same time. This seems far more common a failure than belts breaking.

To me the only annoying thing, but it comes with the territory I guess, is the excessive price most charge for this work, which is not really any more difficult than any modern twin overhead cam car, and in fact far easier than most due to the room that there is to work in. My dealer quoted 10.5 hours for belts, when I just stared rudly at him with a cynical smirk, he said, 'well the radiators have to come out', when I said 'are you telling me you take the radiators out every time you change belts on these!?!', he replied, 'well no, but the book says so and we charge book prices.' So you pay for nearly 11 hours and it takes them 4-6 even with tensioners (mine took 3.5). That's the bit that I think people dislike, it's almost like being openly cheated. I expect to pay for what I get, and I'm happy to pay a premium for a marque specialist, but I, like others I would think, don't expect to pay for the mechanic to work on someone elses car for over half a day, or charge the equivalent of brain surgery dosh. Not changing the belts or questionning the service interval when it was well known before purchase seems silly to me though. The dealerships and specialists are there to make money, surely haggle or look around and get the work done to keep the car and your peace of mind in good fettle...it seems amazing to me how unfixed 'fixed' price service menu's are when you ask!

Oh, one other thing I find odd, why do folks get stressed re the condition of over 3year old belts yet happily do serious 3 digit speeds often in a car that could have seriously old tyres on it!!! Or does anyone ask how old the cambelt was that the dealer put on the car!?! I bought brake discs last year that were made in 2000! Makes you think...

Jon

 

It's commonly the tensioners and bearings that fail.........not the brand new looking belt.

 

Slight correction, book has down as 50k km or every 3yrs for belts, so 31250 miles....still likely most will be time based

Jon

 

That is true for most cars that are not daily drivers. Most all the Porsches I see are that way too. You time out before you get to the mileage.

James
Austin, TX

 

Why do Ferraris run so much hotter than other cars? Because of more horsepower, what? The engine has a 180-190 degree thermostat. A honda and Audi and Toyota have a 180-190 T-stat. Is a 190 degree t-stat in a higher horsepower engine really 250 degrees?

Many modern cars have one thin belt running 4 camhafts and have change intervals pegged at 100K miles. Ferrari uses 2 fat belts between 4 camshafts. Shouldn't that alleviate the insane stresses?

High horsepower stresses the rear of the engine, clutch, trans etc... does not stress the timing gear any more

 

Toyota and Nissan for years had a 5yr/60,000 mile recommended timing belt change. 6 or 7 years ago, Toyota changed their maintenance requirement on this and went to a 6 yr/90,000 mile recommendation. Nissan went to a 6 yr/100,000 mile recomendation. In either case, there was no change to the timing belt operating system or the belt.

 

In theory if the T-stat is 180-190 deg then THAT is what the engine on average is going to run at...PERIOD! If the T-stat is 250 then it will blow up at 250...well, maybe not but your cooling system is going to be under VERY HIGH pressure at that point. I know that all my 928 T-stats are the same, but some of the cars do seem to run hotter (by feel as you are getting out of them) than others, also some of them have gauges that seem to read much higher than the others. Always in the normal range but some are VERY HIGH normal, others are VERY LOW normal. In 928's this comes down to electrical resistance in the gauge system.

YMMV.
James
Austin, TX