Anti seize compounds

LOL. Don't feel bad. It has happened to the best of us. I learned of the benefits of anti-sieze long ago. In fact, the can i'm still using is 35 years old.

Besides sparkplugs, I use it on exhaust nuts and bolts, oxygen sensor, basically any threaded thingie that is prone to rust, high heat, corrossion, and the environment. The key is to use it sparingly. You don't want globs hanging off the fastener. After all, it's only the compound on the threads that actually does anything.

I can't wait until you discover the joys of Liquid Wrench.

Tom

 

I use a very light coating to prevent stuck (seized?) wheels between the contact of the wheel hub and back face of my alloy wheels during summer/winter tire changeover.

 

Holy Cow, wait till he finds out about Loctite, (the racers salvation).


chris

 

Yes. Do not put it on wheel bolts. The wheels will fall off.

 

True. But DO use it on those places where your alloy rims make contact with the steel hubs. Amazing how the alloy wheels can weld themselves to the hubs (ask me how I know).

Personally, on spark plugs, I prefer to put a little engine oil on the threads. Some people swear by anti-sieze, but I was taught to use oil as a kid and always have, and have never had a plug freeze in an engine block. The trick with spark plugs is not to over-tighten them to begin with.

 

I know the admonitions about not using anti-seize on lug nuts, but I did use it for years on my '72 XKE (see my avatar), which had bolt-on chromed steel rims. Just be sure to torque the lug nuts to manufacturer specs and they should be fine. Obviously, don't use an excessive amount, just enough to coat the threads lightly. I heard the "don't use" on lugs a couple of years ago, and stopped, but over the years I used it, I never found a lug nut that loosened when I did use it. That includes during many hours of autocross and track time, when lugs were rechecked regularly for proper torque.

All anedotal, I know. I'd love to hear the answer from one of the engineering types around here. Is this "don't use on lug nuts" urban myth or reality?

 

I would like to hear more too...it has been brought up and debated in a few threads in the past. I know if you do a web search, you will find many that say it is okay. Heck, even the Mobil Corp. website specifically recommends it in one of their tech tips!

Of course the manufactures of anti-seize also advocate it's use for lug nuts (go figure!)...

http://www.saftlok.com/mr/safteze/antiseiz/applications.htm

I have heard to use slightly less torque than specified on lubricated threads to prevent over torquing....but not sure what the formula is. Probably need to do another "google" search.

Well here's an interesting read:
I checked Carroll Smith's Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners and Plumbing Handbook to confirm Wysocki's point. The answer was found in chapter three, "Thread Physics." The text states that many variables affect the amount of torque required to produce a given tension, including the type of plating, the cleanliness of the threads, the fit of the threads, and the type of lubricant used (if any), as well as the thread pitch and the bolt size. Further, it states that, in dry, unplated threads, about 50% of the torque is used to overcome friction between the bearing surfaces and the work faces (where the nut meets the washer or part), and about 40% is used to overcome thread frictions A quick calculation shows that only 10% of the torque is used to create tension in the bolt. It follows that reducing this friction (by applying a lubricant) will cause a much greater portion of the same torque to be applied to creating tension.

Alternatively, the tension created by applying identical torque to a lubricated bolt thread (and bearing surface, also) will be much greater than that produced in a dry thread. How much greater? A graph from the Smith text (pp. 48-52) shows that about 200% more tension - TWICE THE TENSION! - is created when using antiseize, and close to 150% more tension is created when using engine oil as a lubricant. It should be noted that torque tables for particular applications are quoted as "dry and clean," unless they specifically state otherwise. So, if you choose to lubricate the threads and bearing surfaces of a fastener application, the "dry" table no longer applies; instead, refer to a table that shows lubricated torque values or reduce the torque used to produce the recommended tension.

Because of the number of variables involved, I'm not sure that Daniel Wysocki's rule of thumb (65% torque when lubed vs. dry) will apply in every case, particularly with smaller fasteners, where the tolerance of error is smaller, but his guideline is more appropriate than using the "dry" table on a lubricated bolt.

 

Guess we need to find the table for "torque of lubricated threads" to know the correct amount of torque to apply if using anti-seize, or just stop the practice....

 

Anti sieze effects the cooefficent of friction between the matching surfaces on the thread.

A torque value for a fastener is given assuming a certain cooefficent of friction ebtween the threads. Typically, it is a lightly oiled condition. I believe it is about 0.2. Zero is no friction, 1 would be complete friction.

The torque you see on your measuring device is the sum of the turning resistance and the stress resulting from the small amount of stretch of the length of the bolt. The best way to torque a bolt is to actually measure the increase in length of the bolt as it is torqued but this is typically only done on the most exacting of applications.

So by using anti sieze you are reducing the friction resistance I would imagine. The thin layer of soft metallic flakes in the thick oil is pretty slippery. So if you still torque to the specified amount you will be over stressing the bolt. Over stressing the steel bolt could result in creep- a gradual relaxion of the material due to being stressed.

That's a general answer. The question is how big of an issue is it? If you check the bolt torque on a regular basis I wouldn't expect you to have a problem.

Anti sieze is good for keeping disimilar materials from galling togethor. Putting it under the head of bolts may be a good thing on alloy wheels.

Edit- Hugh has good info in his answer.

 

Ha Ha...

Dave has watched Beavis & Butthead hasn't he?

At least he didn't put his name down as Mike Hunt.

 

I have personally know 2 people who had wheels fall off their cars. Both were on the left side of the car (I had a left come off a trailer too), both had never-seize on the lugs.

The left side because any movement in the wheel tends to unscrew the bolts, where on the right side it tightens them.

Never-seize causes a few problems. The first is the one already mentioned, lubricate bolts get much tighter at the same torque as un-lubed bolts. never-seize is a pretty good high pressure lubricant, it doesn't flow under the heat and pressure of tightening the bolt the way that oil or grease will, so the bolt gets really tight. On the surface that might seem like a good thing, but over tightening can and will cause the bolt the permanently stretch, which loosens the bolt, then the motion causes it to fall out.

The second problem is that even if the bolt doesn't stretch, never-seize is filled with metal power. The old stuff was lead, I guess the new stuff come in copper or I think tin (soft silver metal). That metal power doesn’t have anywhere near the compressive stretch that the bolt, hub or wheel have. That means that under normal loads, the particles will compress. When they do, the bolts will be loose and motion will cause them to fall out on the left side.

I like to use a bit of grease on the threads taking care to keep it off the cone. Light oil is probably better, but on my cars that get driven, it seems to get washed of and then the nuts/bolts rust. The grease stays put and everything comes apart nicely.

 

BTW, that "read" I posted was a quote from another website....not my own musings...

Dave

 

As a joke we put it on a guys headphones once...... and you thought it was hard to scrub off your hands

 

My personal preferances FWIW are to us it on exhaust or threaded fsteners exposed to the weather, and heat. And most importantly on Spark Plugs, epecially if threaded into aluminum. There is no worse feelingthan having a plug start out, then lock up, due to thread galling. On of the things I learned in Blown Alky motors is there is no color to "read" the mixture. You watch the temp colors on the tip, and when three are discolored by heat, you are on the edge of meltdown.
Different fastener metals have more tendancy to gall. SS 304 fasteners, a popular one, will gall and sieze easily if no antiseize is applied, or at least a bit of oil. Never use high speed impact tools to drive in or takeout SS fasteners. A new nut and bolt if dry will gall up just from the heat derived from the friction.
IMO, anyhing internal (pertaining to being exposed to the engine oil), such as head bolts etc, should only use oil on the threads. I dont care for the idea of small particles of metal in a fresh motor.
BTW: if ya think Anti seize on a telephone is a fun one, try paste form machinist blueing die. It is a deep blue, and in a toothpaste tube dispenser. LOL

 

i like vasilene petroleum jelly on wheel hubs to stop galvanic corrosion. it works well on wheel studs too. i use it on many surfaces as a lubricant not an anti-seize, more an anti- gall.

 

Ive use'd anti seize compounds for 25years on all wheel studs bolts and highly recomend it on cooling system parts during engine dress up, BMW wheel bolts do not like this stuff they will just keep streaching thats just one that stands out so as davehanda said the torque MUST be reduced, always use it on brake pads and retaining pins just dont over do it,lubing main engine clamping part's head stud's mains big ends etc is done far more accuratly now useing angle torque is the most accurate way to streach a bolt-period,

Dale.

 

I've used various anti-sieze compounds since the late '60s.
Still have about 1/2 a can of NAPA lead based compound. Reserve it & use sparingly for high temp applications such as Exh. manifold studs/bolts, brake rotor mounting bolts, brake pad pins, back of brake pads for squeeking, etc.

Usually use the Permatex silver for most other applications, but also have a Permatex Copper for high temp & SS on SS. Got the copper when I'd misslaid my trusty lead based can.

I ALWAYS use anti-sieze whenever screwing steel fasteners, esp SS into AL. Also use it for steel on steel whenever there's water exposure.

Have used it on lug nuts & bolts on all my cars for 30 years with never a sign of problem. Plan to continue to do so.

 

Really like the Copper paste from Wurth...

-Peter

 

I have used a dab of lithium grease on the threads of wheel lug nuts for 20 years. Never had a problem, and the lugs always come out without a problem. Most importantly, I have never lost a wheel!

Birdman