Antique Pocket Watch Identification and Restoration

FYI - closest match when I tried was movement 2034 JP Stevens, for what's it worth.

 

In post #46 I commented on a pin that was shellaced into the edge of the balance wheel. Well, after taking the balance off last night, I've realized that it is most likely NOT a weight. I think it is a safety pin to keep the balance from rotating past the 180 degree point in either direction which would then cause the balance staff to bind up on the escape wheel or run very wrong as the hairspring would not be running in its natural, unwound state, at center of amplitude. I'll post some more pictures later to further explain.

 

I have a passing curiosity, this may be another source:

https://mb.nawcc.org/forums/european-other-pocket-watches.29/

 

Now that you're into the guts, does it look like a robust fancy movement or just a simple one?

One of the three of my grandfather's I have is very simple. I have heard it was called a "dollar watch" presumably because it cost a dollar to buy at the time.

 

It is fancier than I thought it was. I was shocked to discover that the escape wheel has jewel bearings for both the upper and lower pivots. I had expected them to be drilled bushings. The main/flat surfaces of the main plate (front and back) have a perlage finish applied and the back faces of the 3/4 plate has some machine turning applied. From some of the hand working that has been done to it along the way, I can see that it is likely nickel-plated brass which is fairly standard. The balance cock is definitely hand-engraved and sad to say, not by the most skilled artisan or at least not one that was putting a lot of effort into things. All of that is the long way of saying, it is definitely a "working man's" or "low-grade" movement but appears to be in very good shape aside from the few things I've noted previously.

I have found that each part of the case is stamped with the same (800M) which indicates 80% silver. Immediately beneath that though on each part is the same "JD" stamp. Not sure if that is a "base metal" marking or may actually tie back to the case maker.

 

Do you think the movement parts may have been replaced with, lack of better term, non OEM parts? JD could be John C. Dueber?

 

I suppose that is a possibility but the only marks I see on the case from movement retaining screws line up exactly with this movements screws. Possible the case and movement were ordered from a catalog of offerings and fitted together by a watch maker though. There are notches in the case to make the movement lineup and fit properly which are definitely hand made and unfinished (burrs left on cuts) which is not likely to be a factory finishing technique.

Facebook folks thing it is Swiss made for the American market. Someone on the WatchUSeek forum believes it to be English.

 

English would make sense, they were primary makers of hunter style. Can I ask what is the technical term of what is circled in the pic called, seems unique to this movement?
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It is a “cock”. In this particular instance it is supporting the second and third wheels. I completely agree that it seems unique in design, almost like it should be able to be used as a “fingerprint” like the keyless-works which are normally used to identify a movement. I have no idea if there is a specific term for that shape but it looks like a jester’s hat to me. I just don’t know enough about vintage pocket watches to crack this case... yet!

 

Yes, that's why it stood out, most of the movements I've seen has one or separate "cocks". Hope you guys don't mind me, sticking my beak in.

 

The more help the merrier!

 

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/reference/trademark/2980/-leopold-huguenin-

 

Not sure if at all relevant, but the design is unique, hopefully a clue that leads to another.

 

Ladies and Gentlemen, behold in all its glory... the Mystery Movement laid bare for all to see!

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No surprises along the way regarding condition. I still have a few sub assemblies to take apart (2 I think). One that contains the lower jewels for the balance which I really do not want to take apart as I’m concerned it may misalign them with the uppers. I’ll leave that alone if I can. The balance and hairspring will need to be removed from the balance cock to correct the “sagging” balance wheel but I will do that when I have to and then immediately reassemble.

As I suspected, that old blue steel mainspring is completely worn out. Measurements taken, new one will be ordered along with a replacement crystal.

 

From here it will be time to clean everything. I am still waiting my new ultra sonic machine to arrive but it is scheduled for today so that won’t hold me up. I need to figure out the proper way to address the balance not being flat.

As for the broken screw, no, I’ve not had luck yet but there are tools specific to this issue and I’m shopping for the “best fit” for my long-term needs in the lab. That screw won’t hold me up either though. A new mainspring and crystal are also on the shopping list.

 

The main plate, the balance cock, and the barrel bridge all have matching serial numbers stamped in them "42390" but no signs of any other identifying/signature marks.

 

I just realized I never answered this question. I count 6 jewels. The upper and lower pivots of the escape wheel each have one. The upper and lower pivots of the balance each have a bearing (jewel with a hole in it) and a cap stone (jewel with a flat bottom that limits how far the pivot can move). I need to adjust my microscope to get a closer look but from how it is setup now, they look to be in really good shape too. The non-jeweled bushings don't appear to be wallowed out (which happens commonly). It does appear that those non-jeweled bushings are also press in though vs. sometimes they are simply holes drilled directly into the plates. This means that in the future, a new bushing could be fabricated and used to replace the originals and keep it working vs. having to enlarge the holes, press in new material, and re-drill a pivot hole.

There is no shock protection on the balance as there is on pretty much all modern (1950s and newer) movements. That is not surprising at all though.




To summarize your watch:

80% (800M) Silver hunter/savonette-style case
6-Jewel (rubbed-in jewels and pressed-in bushings which are likely nickel plated brass)
Cylinder Escapement (unadjusted)
Manual wind & lever set
Nickel plated brass plate, bridge, and cocks (I think the wheels are as well)
Enamel on brass dial with a seconds sub-dial at 6 o'clock
Matching serial number components

 

As for the mainspring, there is a series of calculations that can be done based on the inner diameter of the barrel (cylinder that the mainspring fits inside of), the outer diameter of the arbor (cylinder that runs through the center of the barrel), and the thickness of the spring which will give you the ideal length spring. What this does is determine the proper length to have 50% (plus anywhere between 5%-15% but never lower than 50%) to get the maximum usable torque and umber of unwinding turns which are available for operation. I utilize a spread sheet that I built from my "Theory of Horology" text but there are several websites that offer the same calculations without the little extra work I went through. The new material, white allow steel (which I believe is actually 304 Stainless Steel with a Teflon coating) should not take a "set" and is considered "unbreakable".

Running those calculations is what showed me that the current spring which didn't have the correct end for the barrel was far to short (400mm vs the 485mm ideal). That robs power and running time from the movement.

I determined that the cause of the broken crystal is a few small dents on the inside of the front of the case, which PhilB told me he also thought to be the cause, from the watch taking a shunt. I used a small mallet (really its a rod of 316 stainless steel) and a Delrin wheel to gentle work back out. You can still see the creasing from the dents but the peaks/ridges are gone and the outside of the case looks good as new. I believe this will keep that same issue from happening again.

The balance is still giving me some troubles but a little work with a staking tool and it doesn't appear to rub any longer when oscillating. The problem now is that the ring of the balance wheel isn't perpendicular to the axis of rotation because of the sag noted here previously and as a result, it appears to be wobbling when it oscillates. I will need to take it back off of the balance staff and see how much of it I can tease out but I am leery of doing more than absolutely necessary for the watch to work as I would hate to damage the wheel. After all that, I'll have to put quite a bit of time into getting the movement back in beat and properly timed.

That's all I have for today. As always, stay tuned!

 

My new "mini" ultra-sonic cleaner showed up yesterday. Its nothing special, just a sorta cheap two solution home jewelry cleaner, but it does the job nicely for what I'm doing. I got to use it with the two new cleaning solutions (Zenith No. 777 cleaner and Zenit Drizebrite rinse) on @PhilB 's pocket watch and WOW does this stuff cut through the grease and grime and leave a shine! One clean an rinse to break it up, a light screw with a nylon bristled brush, and a second cycle to finish. So much better than the basic soap I'd be using before.

Everything except the balance cock is all cleaned up but since I have more work to do there, I figured I'd wait for a bit. Need the new crystal and mainspring to arrive before I can start putting back together. Project is going to be on a bit of a hold until then.

 

I did end up cleaning the last few pieces after work today. I put some things back together, sans grease/oil, to check if there were any kiddies from cleaning. The second third and escape wheels spin so freely. The lever set mechanism will need just a dab of lock-tite on the threads into the plate as full torque down makes the lever not move easily so need to back off a quarter to half turn and have it stay put.

Today I ordered some fine tipped diamond burrs to make the appropriate hole in the end of the new mainspring as a hole end in the right dimensions was not available and I don’t know if a standard micro drill would cut through the hardened material.

The case and chain got cleaned with some standard jewelry cleaning soap. They look much better, not new, not spotless, but better than they did. A few more trips through should make a continued improvement.

 

Sneak peek: look at that shine!

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