Any electronics experts out there??? (really geeky question) | FerrariChat

Any electronics experts out there??? (really geeky question)

Discussion in 'Other Off Topic Forum' started by bpu699, Aug 14, 2007.

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  1. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
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    I am plating some parts, and this requires a power supply to generate about 1.5 volts at up to 6 amps.

    I have tons of power supplies, which are used to charge radiocontrol airplanes/batteries/nicads/nimh batteries etc.

    Now, the power supply runs current through the part to be plated via an electrolysis bath, and carries zinc onto the part via the current. So far, so good.

    The problem is, for the power supply to "turn on" it has to see a voltage connected to it. So if I just put the part in the bath, the voltage is "zero" and the charger won't turn on.

    I have figured a way around that, and wire a 1.5 volt nicad in line with the plated part, the charger "sees" 1.5 volts, and merrily puts out 6 amps. Works great, until the battery fries and vents. I suspect that most of that 6 amps ends up heating up the battery, and little of it makes it into the electrolysis bath...

    So, here is the question:

    What can I hook up INLINE that generates a voltage (so the charger sees it), yet allows current to pass through relatively easily without consuming too much juice??? I basically need to trick the carger into believing its charging a battery, when in reality the current is being used to plate parts???

    Would a capacitator do it???

    If this questions is just too geeky, I apologize. But I am sure someone on this site is technically saavy enough to help :).

    Thanks, Bo
     
  2. djui5

    djui5 F1 Veteran

    Aug 9, 2006
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    Phoenix, Arizona
    I'd think a cap would do it.
     
  3. MarkPDX

    MarkPDX F1 World Champ
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    Maybe just use a small lightbulb like for a flashlight?
     
  4. ylshih

    ylshih Shogun Assassin
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    What you're describing is a smart charger and it sounds like you need a dumb charger/power supply/battery.

    Most smart chargers work by sensing an initial discharged cell voltage and monitoring that cell voltage to achieve a charging profile that is correct for the type of cell that it is charging. So let's say it is a NiCad, it thinks that it sees 1.1v and it then starts cranking the voltage up to 1.3-1.4 volts to achieve a desired charging current (determined by the charging voltage and the internal resistance of the cell). That initial cell voltage would not be present on a capacitor, so no that probably wouldn't work; also if it did work (some smart chargers put out a trial voltage to see if there's a really deep discharged cell on the load and whether that will hold some voltage and what that voltage is - that's how it decides how many cells are in the load) then it probably wouldn't work for long as the capacitor would charge immediately to whatever voltage the smart charger was trying to put out and the charger would say it was charged and stop.

    Anyway, when you put another load on that in parallel or in series (the plating tank), then the plating tank has a completely different voltage differential but the power supply doesn't know that, it still thinks that it is a NiCad, but one that is behaving strangely. The results may differ, depending on the charger and whether it is in parallel or series load configuration, but overcharging the NiCad is certainly a possible outcome.

    What is the voltage rating on the power supply (most battery chargers aren't actually 1.5 volts, but 4.8 to 12 volts) and what is the plating voltage you're trying to achieve? Also was the trial that you did with the Nicad in series or parallel?
     
  5. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran

    May 14, 2002
    6,929
    What you need is just a beefy power supply that will put out 1.5 volts at 6 amps. No smart charger, no trickle charger, no charger or current limiting of any kind,....just a power supply. I've de-rusted metal with a beefy power supply before. You just need a beefy power supply without any fancy electronics. And use a REAL power supply,....NOT a switching power supply with all it's unnecessary circuitry.

    By the way, if you want to de-rust some steel, suspend the pieces in water and add a little salt to the water in order to increase the conductivity. I've run 10 or 15 amps at 15 volts through some rusty metal before and it really takes the rust away.
     
  6. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
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    Thanks for the help guys...

    The charger I am using is an astro 110D. It does have a "test mode" where the amperage is fully adjustable (0-6 amps), and the voltage fluctuate depending on load. In this mode it doesn't detect peaks, just puts out the predetermined amperage.

    The plating bath has too low of a resistance to trigger the charger (It is looking for some multiple of 1.2 to trigger). Placing a battery (any battery, 1.2 volts on up) will trigger the system nicely, and it work producing up to 6 amps.

    The problem is, the battery quickly charges at the 6 amps, and then converts the current to heat.

    I believe that if I place a resistor in line (1 ohm? 10 watts?) it will trigger the charger to believe that perhaps a battery is hooked up, and start it. Though I am not sure what "voltage" it will start at. the lower the voltage the better, as it demands less watts from the charger.

    For the plating process, voltage is completely irrelevant...its the current that plates.

    Intuitively, I would think that I could create a 1.2v 10 amp nicad (1.2v 2000mah 5 cell in parrallel) that would work in this scenario, and not overheat and vent. BUT it seems to me that even though the bath and battery are in series, the battery sucks up most of the current and the bath is acting like its getting WAY less current than the 6 amps...

    Would a resistor by itself work?
     
  7. ylshih

    ylshih Shogun Assassin
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    Not completely true, which is why I asked. The current determines the amount of material deposited/removed, but there will be a certain voltage characteristic of that plating bath for a given desired current. That voltage is part of the circuit and the other stuff in the circuit cares about the value.

    Let's say the voltage is 2 volts to get 6A of plating current. If the Nicad is in parallel, then you've got 2V applied across a 1.2V Nicad (that wants to see at most 1.6-1.7V for charging) and the plating tank, which will eventually overheat the cell. Note that it's not the 6A that causes the overheating, most of that current is flowing through the tank, not the cell; but a fraction is flowing through the internal resistance of the Nicad and causing that to heat up over time.

    If the characteristic voltage of the plating tank is closer to 1.5-2V, then a nicad cell pack set up as you describe would only put out 1.3-1.35V when fully charged and probably wouldn't source 6A through the plating tank at that low a voltage.

    If you're putting the Nicad in series with the charger and the plating tank, then you're flowing 6A through the internal resistance of the Nicad and it will get very hot. I think parallel is better.

    6A through the resistor will get very hot and you'll need a 10-20 watt resistor for just 1-2V across the resistor. Also, I don't see how the resistor will solve your "how get the charger to see a cell and start charging" problem. As I mentioned first, a DUMB power system solves most of your headaches. Given the pieces you have, that might be done by using charged Nicad cells. The problem I mentioned above is that 1.2-1.3V might not be enough for your plating tank.

    If you want to continue to try to outsmart your smart charger (not something I would necessarily endorse), then I might try a single Nicad with a series resistor in parallel with the plating tank. The Nicad with a series resistor presents a triggering voltage to the smart charger, but the resistor keeps the current in that branch of the circuit low; with most of the current going through the circuit branch of the plating tank. A 10-ohm 1/4 watt resistor is probably good for up to 0.5-0.7 volts of additional voltage drop in that branch without burning up (allowing the power supply to put out up to 2V), while having a low enough resistance that the smart charger might still think it was seeing a battery.
     
  8. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Problem is you are putting the battery in series, you should put it in parallel, that way the charger will still see the voltage but it won't have to pump 6A through it to get to the tank. Put a resistor in series with the battery (but NOT in series with the tank) - that will ensure a small current flows through the resistor/battery and keeps it from overheating but should still turn on the charger.

    It sounds like the charger works by sensing the voltage on the line so the value of the resistor shouldn't have a major impact on whether it turns on because the voltage will still be there. Try a 100 Ohm resistor which could be just 1/4 watt and you should be OK. I'm assuming the voltage and current (same thing really) from the charger vary to a predetermined level so you may need to play with the resistor a bit. I dont know what the max charge rate of that battery is but they can usually take an amp easily. a 100-Ohm is only going to be 20mA (20 thousandths of an amp) so you will not overheat it. You could try dropping the resistor value down if you need to. Or, just add another resistor in parallel with the 1st and it will drop it to 50-Ohm, 4 of them would be 25-Ohm.

    If your PS is a POS :) you could also use a PC power supply. The 12V rail would put out 20 amps on a 240-watt supply which should be way more you need. Just dont come back whining if it explodes on you (just kidding, but do be careful). The solution will have a decent amount of resistance which will control the amp output and I doubt you'll hit anything near 20A. I anodize and even with some big parts you're way below 20A.

    Mind if I ask what you're doing? I have all the stuff at my shop to zinc plate. I do it before copper plating to help the copper have a nice base.

    EDIT: LOL, yeah just read Yins post... coulda saved my typing :)
     
  9. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
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    Thanks for the input guys.

    I will try putting the battery in parrallel, as that sounds like it may do the trick... Nice to know that HS and College physics still play a role in my life ;).

    I am replating some of the hardware on the testarossa, as the golden CAD pieces are starting to oxidize, and they are hard to come by. I have one of the Caswell Plating Kits, and it works fairly well...

    The zinc plating works out fine, and the pieces are quite nice. The chromating process, on the other hand, is completely hit and miss. SOmetimes the chromate produces a nice tough finish, sometimes it just wipes clean off. Looking at the Caswell message board, looks like that about what other users are experiencing...
     
  10. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
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    Just an update for those interested...

    Placing the battery in parrallel didn't work. Basically, the battery dumped all its amperage immediately into the bath, making regulation of the amperage impossible...

    So, that idea went out the window...

    Next, I tried to add resistance to the wiring going into the bath, and that seemed to do the trick. It apparantly tricked the chrager into charging.

    The voltage of the bath varies from 0.6 to about 3 volts...working so far.

    I can't wait until my kids are old enough to do this, and I can use them as helpers :). Plating is fun for awhile, then a boring nuisance. Home plating is neat because you don't have to send parts out, and you can get things done immediately, albeit slowly. But if you intend to plate more than 10-20 pieces...SEND IT OUT :). Its much more cost and time effective. So far, I think I spent about 20-30 hours learning to plate, so it looks decent... So, figure thousands of dollars worth of my time...sigh...

    I wish I had a plater locally...
     
  11. PeterS

    PeterS Five Time F1 World Champ
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    You live in WI / Chicago area and can not find a plater?
     
  12. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
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    Peter, nearest possible plater is 2 hours away. I tried every plater in the phone book, and most will only do large commercial projects...

    I called a couple of local harley, car "restoration" places, and they mail it out...go figure.
     

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