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Anybody try a tilton carbon-carbon clutch?

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by mk e, Nov 10, 2003.

  1. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    11,438
    The twilight zone
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    The Butcher
    I’m thinking about trying a tilton 2-disk carbon-carbon clutch and wondered if anyone had any experience with them. It took my new engine 3 weeks to just flat ruin the kevlar clutch I had installed a couple years ago. Norwood says they can hook me up with a new kevlar unit that will handle the hp/torque I’m making, but the solution seems to be mostly adding a lot more spring force to the pressure plate. Since this is a primarily a street car, I would prefer not to do that. The 2 disk carbon-carbon unit is supposed to be good for about 800 ft-lb torque, be as smooth and light as the stock clutch, live after slipping at up to 8000 rpm, and pretty easy and cheap to rebuild. It just sounds too good to be true, although it is pretty expensive to install. So, has anyone ever tried one?
     
  2. Artherd

    Artherd F1 Veteran

    Jun 19, 2002
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    Ben Cannon
    3 and 4 plate carbon clutches I've had expierence with actually DO meet all the criteria you posted.

    Heck, carbon's C/F actually increases when hot, so dumping the clutch at 8grand actually HELPS matters...

    However there is one exception. They are toggle switches in my expierence. Not horribly slippable.

    The 2 plate may be streetable, but make no mistake, it will NOT be easy to slip.

    But mastering it on the road is a true reward.
     
  3. Schatten

    Schatten F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Apr 3, 2001
    11,234
    Austin, TX
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    Randy
    true true. the kevlar will slip a little more and can be a little more driver friendly if you plan on taking it in traffic anytime soon. otherwise the carbon/carbon units are quite binary: on or off, all within maybe an inch of play, if that at all. more of a video game feel.
     
  4. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    11,438
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    The on-off thing is what I'd heard before about all the race clutches. Tilton specifally says in the descriptions of all their other clutches, including the 4.5" and 5.5" carbon-carbon, that they and not for street use. That's why I was a little surprise to see that, on the 7.25" unit, they do recomend it for "exotic/high performance street" and offer a presure plate that "pressure plate offers additional clutch modulation through a longer (20%) release travel".

    http://www.tiltonracing.com/driveline/cc.html

    Then with a little more searching, I found this

    http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/techarticles/clutchinstall/clutchreplacement.html

    One of the high hp turbo supra guys list and rating of all the clutches he's had, and rated the the tilton unit "1- light pedal feel, very smooth and easy engagement, very expensive". The same rating as stock for feel, where other brands, got 5-10, with 10 being the worst. Could be an add for the shop he deals with though, but then I won't think he would flat say "very expensive".

    It would be about $3k for the clutch assembly, then I need to make a flywheel and a few other things to get it in the car. The kelvar unit is a bolt in, costs about $800, but I know it will be a very very heavy peddle. I'd rather live with a heavy peddle than an on/off switch I think...but I want to believe the carbon unit will solve all my problems....
     
  5. rexrcr

    rexrcr Formula 3

    Nov 27, 2002
    1,572
    Kalamazoo, MI
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    Rob Schermerhorn
    I did the first Tilton F40 install in 1999, a triple plate 7 1/4" with their flywheel and OEM injection triggers. Did not need to modify the T.O. bearing. Tilton still has the drawings. The clutch includes a spacer ring to be installed at the half-life of the clutch, which should be years and years of racing.

    I've run them many times. It will be a bit touchy on the street, but you'll learn.

    Best regards,

    Rob Schermerhorn
     
  6. jeffdavison

    jeffdavison Formula 3
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    Jul 29, 2002
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    Jeffrey Davison
    Mark,

    Have you considered converting your clutch to hydraulically actuated..
    master-slave ? That's what I'm doing with the Strat. The $800 unit sounds like a good candidate.

    Jeff
     
  7. Artherd

    Artherd F1 Veteran

    Jun 19, 2002
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    Ben Cannon
    Rob, you stud!

     
  8. onelove

    onelove Rookie

    Nov 5, 2003
    3
    Figure this would be a decent first post.

    I used to work for a well-known Supra tuner; having installed the clutch in a Supra that made 1150hp to the wheel I have some experience with this. They used the clutch for an entire season (NHRA Drag Radial) and did not go through one set of the wear plates (there are 3 which are replaceable up to 3 times). They where able to slip the clutch somewhat easily, and the pedal was actually lighter than the factory (I would compare it to a Honda civic). The clutch loved to be slipped and actually needed to be "heated up" before getting on it to hard. I don't have experience with the twin in the Ferraris, but I can imagine it would be a similar experience.
     
  9. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    11,438
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    I spoke to an engineer at tilton today, he recomended the 3 disk for better life, and to put about the softest springs in the pressure plate. $3400 for the clutch, about $1000 for a flywheel and maybe a throwout bearing. I'm not sold on the idea of an ultalight flywheel on a street car, I've driven things set-up like that before and they tend to be a lot less forgiving off the line. I measured the stock flywheel and it looks like it could easily be machined to accept the new clutch. Any other thoughts on that??

    I also spoke to Nick about the 2-disk clutch he has on his web sight. It uses a quarter master 7.25" with organic linings. He's never sold it for the street, but he checked with the guys at quarter master and they said it should handle 750 ft-lb torque (I'm at about 500) and would be fine on the street with a hydraulic throwout bearing. His package is about $3000 ready to bolt-on. I'm not to sure about it though...I don't see why going to a hydraulic throwout bearing fixes the on/off feeling he told me it has with a standard throwout, maybe ratios changing. And heat is alway a problem with organic linings, probably why tilton doesn't even sell them. The price bothers me a little too. The clutch assemble seems to retail at about $600, the flywheel at $1000 (tilton's 1 off price), so I'm having trouble getting to $3000. I found a 3 disk version off the clutch assemble on ebay for $185.
     
  10. rexrcr

    rexrcr Formula 3

    Nov 27, 2002
    1,572
    Kalamazoo, MI
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    Rob Schermerhorn
    Hydraulic release will be worth the effort, and you can change the ratio by changing master cylinders. Go with the CC. Express your concerns with Tilton over flywheel mass and streetability. These guys are hard-core engineers. Talk to Mike O'Neil rather than a sales engineer if you want, he's at the top of the engineering chain. They will use your flywheel if it will work, they would've used my F40, except it wouldn't have been as light.

    I had a clutch in a Trans Am race car with Tilton stuff as soft as any Honda, due to hydraulic ratio.

    Their pricing seem right, though. I always figures about $5000 for CC with flywheel and bellhousing for Trans Am stuff. It was about $4000 +/- for the F40.

    Rob
     
  11. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    11,438
    The twilight zone
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    The Butcher
    Thanks for the input everyone. The carbon clutch will be here is 7-10 days. I'm going to mount it on the stock flywheel. I haven’t decided about the throwout bearing yet. The 308 has an intermediate lever that can easily be changed to set the pedal/bearing motion ratio to almost anything, although the hydraulic is probably smoother..I still need to think about that.
     

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