Anyone explain to me the myriad sanctioning bodies/classes in sports car racing? | FerrariChat
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Anyone explain to me the myriad sanctioning bodies/classes in sports car racing?

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by Fast_ian, Dec 28, 2012.

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  1. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

    Sep 25, 2006
    23,397
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    Ian Anderson
    #1 Fast_ian, Dec 28, 2012
    Hey,

    I've been an F1 fan for longer than I care to admit - Suffice to say I saw Jimmy race when I was young and have been following, and briefly worked in it ever since. As a racing fan fortunate to live close to Brands & Silverstone I also attended the BOAC 1000 and it's ilk a few times - If not the "halcyon" days of endurance racing there was certainly some good racing and *great* looking (and sounding) cars. As with any petrol-head I also somewhat follow Le Mans every year.

    Then I kind of lost interest - I'm not sure why really - Suspect it was the lack of a coherent championship (ala the WEC) and "interesting" cars / manufacturer involvement.

    Obviously, Jims stellar efforts have rekindled interest, and I've been following the ongoing debates in the Sebring / Daytona threads. Trouble is, I am now almost totally confused about the whole mess! Seems there's almost as many sanctioning bodies issuing rules as there are cars running...... [This cannot be good IMO.]

    Anyway, and please correct me if wrong, my understanding at present is we have;

    Sanctioning Bodies

    - The ACO. The pooh-bars of the only endurance race that matters on the world stage, and they know it. Arrogant (with respect ;)) Frenchmen who basically set their own rules and whose race may, or may not, be a part of the WEC.
    - The WEC itself, sanctioned by the FIA, and which seems to come and go almost yearly. It appears to me that the FIA knows they've gotta have Le Mans in their series if it's to mean anything at all - Hence they bend over to accept whatever the ACO gets up to (?)
    - FIA GT1 series - I guess for GT1 cars only? I caught a race recently on the tube and the racing wasn't bad. Trouble was, there were only about a dozen cars running. Is it a WC?
    - ALMS (now eaten up by the Nascar owned Grand Am series I believe.) ALMS used to run under the same rules and classes as the ACO, correct? I attended one of their races at Road Atlanta a few years back and it was pretty good racing although I'll never get used to "silent" diesel powered cars - The Audi's simply "whooshed" by with a little tire noise. Great technology I guess, but just "not right" in my mind......
    - Then we have Sebring & Daytona - I'm not even sure who sanctions these races or whether the rules are consistent between 'em? If I build a car for one, can I run it in both without modification? How about Le Mans?

    Car Classes

    This is where I get *really* messed up!.....

    - Le Mans / ALMS has (or had?) LMP1, LMP2 and GT1-3. LMP1 is the "top end", expensive (more than F1 if Jim is to be believed!) High tech, manufacturer backed, "one off" prototypes looking for overall wins. [Analogous to the fabulous 917's & 512's etc?]
    - LMP2 - Basically, older LMP1 cars in the hands of privateers? Some additional restrictions over what is and isn't allowed?
    - GT1, GT2 and GT3 - Seems to be mainly Porsches in various configurations. I guess you've got to have built 'X' # of cars to qualify in these classes? GT1 is the fastest, right? Then GT2 and finally GT3?
    - Jims "hybrid" class.
    - Grand AM "Daytona Prototypes" - Low tech, "affordable" cars that look like sports cars. Mainly run by privateers?
    - GTA?
    - GTE?

    Race Series

    - The WEC - This *should*, IMHO, be "the big one". Almost on a par with the F1 WCC.
    - Myriad championships, run by myriad bodies, to different rules all over the world - I can't even start on these!...... The "Grand Am" Series? Then I'm sure there's European and Asian equivalents?

    Gotta be honest, seems a complete mess to me. Needs some heavy consolidation, one set of rules and just one series at the top level. As always with sports cars, there's gonna be different classes, but do we really need as many as we currently have?

    Any insights & clarifications etc very welcome!

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  2. arakisfilip

    arakisfilip Formula Junior

    Jan 25, 2004
    295
    #2 arakisfilip, Dec 28, 2012
    -Sebring used to be run by the ALMS/IMSA(ACO) rules, it will be run under the joined banner with Grandam form 2014 forward. Daytona is run by Grand AM.

    -LMP1 corretct, although privateers can also run their own, and older manuf LMP1s as well.

    -LMP2 -cost caped class much cheaper then LMP1...more standardized parts etc, only privateers alowed.

    -GT1 no longer exists in any shape or form.. It used to be a class that used to run McLarens, Porsche 911 GT1s etc, but was at one point shut (cc 1999) down. The then GT2 class bacame the GT class, and the GT3 became NGT, this was then changet to GT-GT1 and NGT-GT2..later that GT1 calass got killed off and GT2 was turned into GTE....So GTE is in it's essence the '98 gt3 class ... In the GTE classe the main conterneds over the LAST 12 years have been Ferrari and Porsche, with realitvly current influx of BMWs, Corvettes, Lotuses, Astons etc...
    GTE is now split into PRO and AM. PRO is usualy run by the latest machinery, factory drivers and teams. etc..
    AM is run by privatters, and at least one driver has to be below gold rating..
    -orignal GT3,then NGT, then GT2 then GTE class was and still is consived as a raod to track conversion with minmal BoPing involved, it was suposed to be development driven...this has taken a turn for the worse in the last 3-4 years.

    The current Gt3 class was concived by SRO as a low cost class entielry relaying on BoP to maintain the balalnce... It has turned into a f-fest in somuch as the Factories spend more time negotiating BoP isnted of developing cars (which I guess was the intent)

    -Jim's hybrid class is the expermental class alowed to run in the VLN/N24. It was intended to alow non homologated vhiecless to run the 24N, or more specificly the then totaly iligal BMW M3 GTR...It has since been extended to allow hybrids as well..

    -Basicly if you are interested in endurance racing FIA/ACO WEC is the one to watch and follow, with the exceptions of the N24, and the Daytona 24, Sebring 12... WEC is the one where the best of the best race, and the one where the highest tech is, and the competiton is development driven. I'd watch daytona cause of the legacy, but the DPs are basicly stock cars with prototypeish bodies.... N24 is fun to watch just for the utter insenity of it :)
     
  3. Merak1974

    Merak1974 Formula 3

    Aug 31, 2009
    1,716
    Oslo, Norway
    Full Name:
    Gabriel R.G. Benito
    #3 Merak1974, Dec 28, 2012
    Thanks for the excellent overview

    A couple of small corrections..

    ... FIA's GT1 class was run as a true GT1 class until 2011. The final years were run as a World Championship, with Maserati (MC12) winning in 2010. The MC12 also dominated the GT1 series from 2005 to 2009 when it was run as a FIA Championship (but not World Championship).This year the series was run with GT3 cars.

    ...at the other end of the GT scale, there is also GT4 class, but the only current championship I know of that runs this class is the Brazilian GT.
     
  4. arakisfilip

    arakisfilip Formula Junior

    Jan 25, 2004
    295
    #4 arakisfilip, Dec 28, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2012
    Sorry what I ment was that the GT1 class has been pronounced dead a few months ago when Ratel (SRO) decided to not run it next season after the utter failiure of this season...

    Ok GT1 history :)

    The class originated from the BPR series int the FIA GT1 championship around the end of 90', the class was also acepted by ACO and raced at le Mans, even taking over all victory in '98 with the Porshce 911 GT1.. in 99 the class was totaly dominated by Mercedes, and porsche pulled out along with MERC at the end of 99... leaving the entry list for 2000 toaly emty. along side it Porsche GT2s and Vipers were racing in the GT2 class, and a porsche GT3 fest in the GT3 class...

    In 2000 FIA GT championship was born and it consited out of GT class (old GT2s) and the NGT class (old GT3 class now porsche was joind by ferrari) This ware the days of the Vipers, Porsche GT2s and Lister Storms....

    A few years later Ferrari 550 joined them along with Saleen, Corvette, and Aston martin...
    and the class was again named to Gt1.... A few years later MC12 joind them and it preatty much obliterated the class... Here there was a rift with the ACO, as the MC12 was iligal in ACO sanctioned races, so GT1 in ALMS and LE mans mostly featured Corvette and Aston Martin Battles....This lasted up t 2010 I think when FIA (under the vision of Ratel SRO) decided to disband both the GT2 and GT1 classes in FIA racing and build the GT1 World Championship (it was called up till then just FIA GT championship) where manufactures could race each other.. It was supposed to be Balance of Performace baised, with each manufacturer supplying 4 cars, etc,etc, something similar to DTM... This failed miserable, and in 2012 ratel decided to mix up the new GT1 cars with GT3 cars as an all encompasing GT1 class, which failed as well... it is now dead and buried.

    I'm pulling this out of my head so some dates and/or names might be wrong...

    Unless its not apperent I'm a rabid GTE fan, and have folwed Ferrari's exploits in the class since the NGT days... Incredible battles between F360 vs 996 GT3, F430s vs 997 GT3s, and now 458 vs 991 GT3,Corvette, BMW z4 GTE(connverted GT3), Aston Martin vantage etc...
    If you'd like Enduracnce racing I would sugest subscribing to http://www.dailysportscar.com/ the best endurance racing MAG, they also publish free content for most of the races, as well as join the great community over at ten-tenths/ sportcars and GTs... http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=7

    Best finish of any race ever IMHO that is... [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjWo8VdMb8I[/ame]
    final 2 laps of 2007 12h of Sebring, with Melo in a 430 and a Jorg bergmaiser in a 997 fighting it out till the flag after 12h of qualifying lap speed racing... it came down to 0.2s...
     
  5. Merak1974

    Merak1974 Formula 3

    Aug 31, 2009
    1,716
    Oslo, Norway
    Full Name:
    Gabriel R.G. Benito
    #5 Merak1974, Dec 28, 2012
    Added those links to my favourites. Thanks!
     
  6. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

    Sep 25, 2006
    23,397
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    Ian Anderson
    #6 Fast_ian, Dec 29, 2012
    Firstly, thanks for the comments guys - I really appreciate the efforts.

    Trouble is, and maybe I'm a little slow, I'm almost as confused now as before! :eek:

    OK. So for 2013 can I do one car that can run in each without modification? How about then taking it to Le Mans? Will it be in the same class?

    Same question for 2014 - Presumably the Sebring/Daytona rules will be consistent, but will they mesh with Le Mans?

    Hy head hurts! ;)

    The WEC now comprises LMP1, LMP2 and GTE then? [Outside of any experimental Jim or dildo car exceptions.... ;)]

    Oops! LMP's + GTE + GT3 then?..... Who is SRO?

    I'd almost forgotten the infamous BOP - Are all classes subject to this? Gotta be honest, while I understand what they're trying to do with it I hate it! If I build a better car, in any class, I deserve to win, not then get hobbled because I'm successful. How often can the BOP be changed? Once a season? After every race? Additional weight? Less air? Both?

    That would have been my take too - It *should* be all about the WEC. Sebring is a round thereof, Daytona isn't, at least in 2012. Haven't seen the 2013 calendar yet.

    My, admittedly sketchy, knowledge suggests that the WEC comes & goes depending on who happens to be interested each year. And that seems to be limited to mostly just one manufacturer who, obviously, then dominates the whole thing.

    Having said that, Jim seems adamant (and he certainly knows *way* more than us in the peanut gallery) that Grand Am is the way to go - Would a car built for that "work" at Le Mans? The N24? The other WEC rounds?

    Thanks again for the insights guys,
    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  7. AlanWJ

    AlanWJ Guest

    Jan 1, 2013
    1
    #7 AlanWJ, Jan 1, 2013

    The ACO runs Le Mans, for many years they were only interested in this one race, sometimes Le Mans was part of other Championships, but in recent years it's been an independent race.

    The FIA World Sportscar Championship (aka WEC) ran continuously from 1953 to 1992.

    In 2012 the ACO decided to revive the WEC, they approached the FIA and were granted the promotional rights to the FIA WEC. Today the WEC is run and organised by the ACO with help from the FIA, Le Mans is part of this series, so enter the WEC and you get a Le Mans place. There have been a few FIA GT1/Sportscar Championships, but the World Championship as we know it is the one noted above.

    LMP1 - The top prototype class, lots of technology allowed, a home for factory teams, but privateers also enter. These are undoubtedly expensive to run, but not to F1 levels, privateers can purchase a chassis and spares package for around $1m-$1.5m plus race budget.

    LMP2 - A cost-capped class, cars produced by the likes of Lola, Lotus, Honda Performance Development, OAK, Zytek and ORECA. A car and spares package comes in around the $500k mark, similar costs to DP. Teams that run in this class need to have one amateur driver to encourage gentleman drivers run and purchase cars.

    GTE - Your regular 911's, 458's, Corvette's, Vipers and others, there's a Pro class for factory teams and all professional factory teams, an Am class for year old cars with at least one amteur driver.

    The ACO also run the European Le Mans Series and a new for 2013 Asian Le Mans series, these are considered feeder series for the WEC, with the top class being LMP2.

    There's also another well know class called GT3 which was intended to be for affordable cars that are easy tpo drive for amateurs, these cars are very similar in looks and performance to GTE, though the technical rules are quite different. These cars are allowed in the regional ACO series (European Le Mans Series and Asian Le Mans Series) but are mainly seen in the likes of Blancpain, VLN, British GT and such.

    At the moment the manufacturers are in talks with the ACO/FIA to merge GTE and GT3 in time for the 2015 season, or at the very least allow a GTE car to downgraded to a GT3, and vice versa, something which cannot be currently done.
     
  8. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

    Sep 25, 2006
    23,397
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    Ian Anderson
    #8 Fast_ian, Jan 28, 2013
    Thanks again for the comments & explanations guys - Much appreciated.

    I actually watched a few hours of Daytona this past weekend and that coupled with a few of Jims recent comments in the "race" threads means I now have even more Q's...... :eek: ;)

    - It seems the Grand Am "DP" cars were built by either Riley or Chevy. However, Riley doesn't seem to get much credit as they're pitched as BMW's, Ford's etc. The Chevy Corvette's look nothing like a Corvette to me - Just a Riley clone (?) I assume this is down to the regulations? None of these are what we would consider "high tech", right? IIRC, I read they're all tube frames with very limited electronic aids etc?

    - The GT1 class is (loosely!) based on street cars; The (seemingly factory supported) Audi's, Ferrari's BMW's etc. Most of these things in "street" form have all the gizmo's; Ediffs, traction control, ABS, 4WD etc etc. Must these also be "dumbed down" in order to compete, or is that just the DP?

    Also noted that they were pretty much all whining about their top speed being down relative to their competitors - Pretty standard motor racing comments of course, but will the BOP be changed prior to their next round? In both classes? Or are you now good to go all thru this years Grand Am series?

    How many of these are eligible for Sebring? (& hence Le Mans) Without mods? Sebring is a round of the WEC while Daytona wasn't, correct?

    TIA for comments,
    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  9. GTS Bruce

    GTS Bruce Formula Junior

    Oct 10, 2012
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    Orchard Park NY
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    Bruce Roche
    #9 GTS Bruce, Jan 28, 2013
    Quick explanation. Rolex and Grand Am are low tech NASCAR sports car racing. ALMS is high tech the rest of the world sports car racing. SCCA is the silly car club of america and svra is a touring club for over the hill drivers and cars.
     
  10. rydermike

    rydermike Formula Junior

    Mar 27, 2010
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    Mike Donohue
    #10 rydermike, Jan 28, 2013
    Grand Am is for the drivers to race and prove their abilities without all the driver aids that make real heros out on some that may in fact be mid pack at best. All that high tech stuf like traction control ABS really needed for the best drivers?
     
  11. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

    Sep 25, 2006
    23,397
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    Ian Anderson
    #11 Fast_ian, Jan 28, 2013
    Ouch! :)

    Dunno too much about the others, but in the (limited) historic/vintage stuff I've seen there's some guys leaning pretty heavily on some nice cars. Is that not SVRA?

    Fair enough.

    F1 is my thing, and I agree they shouldn't have ABS, TC etc. It's high tech, but despite claims to the contrary, "driver aids" are, basically, outlawed.

    OTOH, at least in the (numerous!) GT classes, your car is derived from a "street legal" version. These have *all* the gizmo's! I always thought sports car racing was about racing these things? One manufacturer -v- the next, showcasing their tech etc etc. If they can't do that at Le Mans etc, where can they do it?

    As for the prototypes, by the same thinking, shouldn't they be showing us what they've got coming down the pike? Something super hi-tech these days of course. Where can they race?

    Not trying to argue BTW, I think it's an interesting conundrum.

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  12. GTS Bruce

    GTS Bruce Formula Junior

    Oct 10, 2012
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    Orchard Park NY
    Full Name:
    Bruce Roche
    #12 GTS Bruce, Feb 5, 2013
    The most important thing is that the racing provides a good show and although working very hard the drivers are having fun. BTW I definitely belong with an SVRA type of group now days. GTS Bruce
     
  13. rdefabri

    rdefabri Three Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 4, 2008
    33,571
    NJ
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    Rich
    #13 rdefabri, Feb 12, 2013
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the published classes for the merged Grand Am / ALMS look awfully similar to ALMS without LMP1, no?

    - LMP2 becomes the top class, and the Grand Am Daytona Prototypes will be modified so they are on par with the ALMS LMP2 cars. Delta Wing competes here as well. Now the question becomes - will the cars be more Daytona Prototype or more LMP2? I'm thinking the latter, but with enclosed cockpits (like the Lola coupes)

    - ALMS PC class continues

    - Each org's production-based GT classes will continue as separate, distinct categories based on performance. So I assume they'll be labeled GT1 and GT2?

    Ian - to your original post - as a casual (but long time) sports car racing fan, it IS a mess, most certainly here in the States! Being US-centric, I associate most with the IMSA GTP cars, which were just great in my opinion. Very similar to the FIA Group C. I'm old enough to remember the tail end of Can-Am, but IMSA GTP was awesome. I'm hoping that from a US perspective, this acquisition / merger gets us back to those days.

    Honestly, with all the nonsense and wrangling that goes on between ACO/FIA/WEC/ACCUS and the US-based series, I'm glad for this combination. LeMans is a great race, but Sebring and Daytona have plenty of history, so hopefully there's a little less influence from Europe.

    Rename the combined series IMSA GT Championship and let's have at it in 2014.
     

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