Ok, here's the scenario: A very good customer of mine calls this morning and wants to drop off his just purchased '98 SL600 with 10K miles on the clock for a quick once over and checkup before he leaves for Florida with it. So he drops the car off and says to call him when we're done. I head out to the lot to bring the car inside and as soon as I get into it, I see some things that are very amiss..Unusual wear on the driver's seat leather, dirty carpets, butchered up door panel, etc.. Pull the car in and get it up into the air on the lift. First inspection reveals some very nasty stuff...Overspray everywhere underneath the car, zip ties galore holding wiring together, obvious accident damage to the front end and worst of all, tons of RUST....EVERYWHERE!! Control arms, steering knuckles, subframe, etc..etc...Let me tell you, this car looked as if it had been through a thousand Detroit winters and never washed! So the car was clearly involved in quite an accident. And whomever "fixed" it really cobbled it back together. There was undercoating on the subframe where it looks like it had some non-factory welding done on it, the points where the eccentric bolts for the a-arms go through were extremely rusted and banged up, particularly at the rear end of the car. The hydraulic suspension lines were leaking to the point of almost spewing.....the list goes on and on. It's a real shame, because the R129 chassis SL600 is one of the finest cars MB ever built. We're a Mercedes specialist and we see loads of these cars in for service and I'll tell you that there is NO way that this car has 10K miles on it. More like 100K. The owner literally just bought it two days ago up in Detroit, Michigan and drove it back here to Cincinnati. He said he bought it from someone he thought was a private owner until he got to his house and worked the deal and the guy had a dealer's license and all relevant paperwork, etc..Now, my customer did sign an "as-is" waiver when he bought it and it did state that the car had "previous front end and ditch damage" on the document, however I am under the impression that the "as-is" form shouldn't save the dealer's ass from litigation for selling a car that I, as a Mercedes-Benz specialist, deem UNSAFE to drive. It is one thing to cover your ass for some electrical item failing (or other) after the sale, but selling a car that the entire body sags when it's lifted into the air?? Me thinks not. Anyone have any ideas on what the best course of action for him to take is? I could only offer that he should see a lawyer and that he ought to have some chance of recourse with the guy. But perhaps he should first call the dealer back and make him an offer to sell the car back to him for full price before he takes legal action against him. I don't know the laws in Michigan. Hopefully someone can chime in here. I felt so bad for him that I didn't charge him for the inspection. Although it did teach him a lesson....PPI before you buy!! Cheers, Aaron '82 GTSi
I don't think this would qualify for lemon laws. Don't lemon laws cover cars that came deffective from the factory?
I lemon lawed my MB G-500. The funny thing is after it was bought back from me, it goes to another state and gets auctioned off. I consulted with an attorney but handled everything myself. I was told the more serious the issue, the less times it needs to be brought back to the dealer to be lemon lawed. The amount of days your without your car also factors into the equation. Mine was a serious problem and after having my vehicle at the dealership over 30 working days for the same problem MB bought it back. Your's sounds like a very different situation and I'm also guessing the law is different state to state. I would call an attorney who deals with these issues and see what he has to say. Just my .02. Good Luck.
Lemon law won't apply (new cars only), but there is the smallest chance he may have some recourse. Most likely he is SOL though - he bought a used car with an as-is disclaimer of his own free will.
I think the lemon laws state that you have to declare all lemons, fruits and vegetables at customs when entering the country .... which is why you can't get Alfas in the US since Fiat took 'em over. (Sorry, .. couldn't resist.)
If he bought it through a dealer (new or used car), disclosure laws are really what you need to research. Lemon Laws are to protect customers from the factory. Regardless, the laws vary from state to state. If the car is really a heap like you claim, then the guy should contact the seller IMMEDIATELY and get the ball rolling.
he is going to have to chalk it up as a learning experience. The fact that he signed an "as is" bill of sale pretty much closes any case he could possibly make UNLESS the mileage was rolled back. That is a federal offense. It has been my experience that all "little guy shops" like the guy your friend purchased from buy cars at auctions that are damaged hoping to cheaply put it back together like "new" and make an easy profit. Thats why I will only buy new from dealer or used from an enthusiast owner and NO ONE else.
Wierd thing is that the odometer shows 10,161 but on the title, someone has written, "1998 Mercedes SL600, 55,000 miles" up at the top of the document, as if they had a stack of titles and they needed a quick reference without having to root through all of them to find it. So at some point in time, this car has had its clock rocked. I was just under the impression that it is a dealer's responsibility to make sure that any car they are selling as 'roadworthy' is actually so. Whether they are aware of any possible damage or not, it is their responsbility to find out. Cheers, Aaron '82 GTSi
I think your guy loses on the basis of the 'as-is' sale, unless he can show that the transaction documents misrepresented the mileage of the car. I'm not entirely clear, based on your description, whether the indication of much higher mileage, written "at the top of the document" would effectively nuke his position. I also thought lemon laws applied to new car defects, not to misrepresentations on used car condition, but I'm willing to be educated.
Things are different in every state. A few years ago I was told by an attorney here in Louisiana that even if the car was bought "as-is" there could be some recourse if the seller knew there was problems. I'm sure you would have to prove the seller knew of the problems. I would talk to an attorney, or two, and see if anything can be done. As far as lemon laws every state has there own standards. IIRC Here the car has to go back to the dealer at least 4 times for the same problem and they not be able to fix it. I think this would apply to a new vehicle.
I'm a Michigan dealer. Lemon Law will not apply. Consumer Protection case most likely, along with odometer rollback = Fraud. Here is some Michigan contact info: Used Car & Dealer Problems, Repair Facilities, Odometers Secretary of State Bureau of Regulatory Services PO Box 30046 Lansing MI 48909 800-292-4204 (toll free in MI) 517-636-6400 Out-of-State Callers www.michigan.gov/sos
Maybe Illinois is the odd duck, but here's the word straight from our Atty General's website: "The Lemon Law DOES Cover: New Cars (purchased or leased) Light Trucks and vans under 8,000 pounds Recreational vehicles (excluding trailers) Vehicles in their first 12 months or 12,000 miles, whichever occurs first Vehicles purchased in Illinois The Lemon Law DOES NOT Cover: Used Cars Altered or modified vehicles Motorcycles and boats "
God, I watch too much Judge Judy... Apparantly some states do have lemon-law type laws that effect old cars! In some states, if a car requires more than 5% of the cars value to make it pass state inspection, the car must be taken back by the dealer... I never knew this, but saw these cases several times on Judge Judy/Peoples court, etc. I know, this isn't the perfect legal reference, but hey, I am sure its right. Notify the dealer in writing ASAP. The odometer issue is huge, that alone should get you a refund...
In MA, we have the Lemon Law for new cars and the "Lemonade Law" for used cars. If a used car requires more than 10% of the value of the car to fix, it must be taken back by the seller. The caveats are -The items must be safety in nature, items that would prevent the vehicle from passing a sticker test. That means, while you may argue the bumper is a safety item, the fact that it's cracked does not count, etc. -The value of the car must be over $1,000.
Even if he signed an AS IS form, it really doesnt end there, at least in NJ. NJ requires frame damage and accident disclosure up to a certain dollar amount. Remember, the laws and courts favor the customer and NOT the dealer. If someone where to come in to my dealership and buy a car that was held together with bubblegum and thumb tacks, just because they sign an AS IS form doesnt mean the deal is done.
Have a vin. no. check done by a local M/B dealer. They can check on when and where any service was done on the vehicle. The mileage will be recorded at each service stop. I am sure the original owner had the car serviced at a M/B dealer while it was still in warranty. You can get a paper trail started there. Once you can determine the true mileage that was done when the car was originally serviced at a M/B dealer you can go back to the dealer who sold the car with evidence of odometer tampering. Make them the offer to take the car back or let them speak with your customers attorney. In Texas we are required to disclose the $$$ amount of any body repairs with a description of the work done. If there is frame damage it is also within reason to ask for the car to be taken back. This will not fall into Lemon Law jurisdiction but it will be covered by consumer fraud. Fraud carries stiff penalties where lemon laws only require the manufacturer to repair, replace or refund the vehicle with no penalties to the dealer who sold it. They are not related to accidents...... Your customer is certainly within his rights to demand an equitable solution to this opportunity. A good attorney who specializes in this type of situation would be all over this. I was general manager for a BMW dealership for 9 years and a well known Ferrari store for a couple. I hope your friend gets his money back and the dealer who sold him this car gets his due reward. This is what gives car dealers a bad name. Only a small percentage of dealers are like this.....
Agreed. Mom and Pop used car lots. You dont generally find these kinds of issues with New Car franchise dealers
Thanks fellas, for the replies. Much good info here! One thing I had in mind was to check the actual manufacture date of the instrument cluster/speedometer head. I can't remember off hand if VDO still puts MFG dates on these components in newer cars, but all old MB speedos have a date code stamped on them by VDO. So let's say that I yank the cluster out and find the date code of 2001. Hmmm, what's a cluster that was manufactured in 2001 doing in a car from 1998? Ok, maybe it was replaced because it went bad (not uncommon for newer MBs). Well, in that case, to order a new speedometer head from MB, you must provide them with mileage certification which they will then double check before they code the new digital odometer with the correct mileage. So there would be documentation of all of this with MBUSA if it was in fact legitimately replaced. If that documentation can't be provided, he should have a strong case against the dealer. Just for mileage fraud. THEN we can get into the safety problems with the car... Cheers, Aaron '82 GTSi
