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Anyone Seen Farenheit 9/11

Discussion in 'Mid-Atlantic Region - USA (PA, DE, MD, DC, VA)' started by F430xxx, Jun 28, 2004.

  1. F430xxx

    F430xxx Formula Junior

    Jun 11, 2004
    749
    What do you think? I saw it yesterday for the first time and it literally changed my perspective on things. It truly is one of the most powerful FACTUAL documentaries I have ever seen.

    David K.
     
  2. Ira Schwartz

    Ira Schwartz Formula 3
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    Highest grossing movie of this past weekend (and biggest opening numbers of any documentary ever); hope to see it next week.
     
  3. tifosi

    tifosi F1 Veteran
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    I don't want to get into a political debate but I am interested in what was so enlightening about the movie?
     
  4. boxerboy2

    boxerboy2 Rookie

    Feb 8, 2004
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  5. F430xxx

    F430xxx Formula Junior

    Jun 11, 2004
    749
    It was a bold move on Moore's part in illustrating all of his findings. Grant it it came across one sided yet the enormity of current events dwarf the Monica Lewinsky debacle..... I am a capitalist at heart yet death posed by either side for What???????
     
  6. tifosi

    tifosi F1 Veteran
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    I have not seen the movie but I doubt Moore illustrated all his findings - I would think he illustrated all his findings that support his view that Bush should be thrown out of office. Nothing wrong with that as long a you take it in the proper context. Being a capitlalist at heart you should understand the influences of business on politics and vice versa, nothing is perfect but nothing is as extreme as Moore probably protrays.
     
  7. F430xxx

    F430xxx Formula Junior

    Jun 11, 2004
    749
    I have to say it is tough. One is forced to almost always choose one side or another. On one hand I have a terrific life and thank GOD daily for living here in the states. On the other you want to say and do something yet you hesitate because you know of nothing to do. I'm not about to stand in front of the DMV.
     
  8. Dopplemax

    Dopplemax Formula 3

    Thats the beauty of this country. Moore has the right to say what he thinks, you have the right to say what you think with your vote. Having worked for so long in the consulting world though, I can absolutely tell you that there isn't a single issue in existance for which you can't find evidence to support both sides. Usually, it boils down to who paid for the research, or who stands to make the most from it. Hmmmm. Now who would that be in this case?
     
  9. F430xxx

    F430xxx Formula Junior

    Jun 11, 2004
    749
    Bush I think hahahahah
     
  10. likeyoudontknow

    likeyoudontknow Karting
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    May 6, 2004
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    I believe that many citizens should at least watch the movie, and then make a judgment call. Like so much of this existence (life), do not take things for face value and as any formally educated person would explain, debated can and always will have manifest and latent functions. Saying this, I still believe there are some interesting notions that the “average” American would find difficult to comprehend unless further researched.

    To more specifically raise some debate issues, I found just to be a few disturbing discussion points of interest.

    1. The Saudi American embassy has six secret service agents providing personal security at all times in which our American tax dollars indirectly fund.
    2. Twenty-four members of Binladin’s family were escorted from the county immediately following 9/11 without even being so much as questioned?
    3. Thirty years of family ties with the Bush’s & Binladin’s?
    4. Binladin family singularly owns nearly 1 trillion dollars of our economy (7% to 8% of our market).
    5. Binladin family has transmitted $1.4 billion dollars in family business directly to Bush family business venture operations.
    6. JUST TO NAME A FEW…

    Being a businessman myself, I find it somewhat unacceptable for the President (and cabinet/supporters) of our nation to practice such questionable business ethics. The numerously documented contradicts are somewhat disheartening throughout the video to say the least. Democratic, Republican, Independent aside, what choice do we really have as Americans to represent us? “Choice is nothing more than an illusion created between those with power and those without”. Think just a few years back to the Democratic President, William Clinton. Contradiction after contraction…white water, Lewinski, ect. Regardless of whose party you choose to support, all choices are flawed, thus presenting a completely flawed process, system, and subsequent outcome. My concern is that it’s becoming, “acceptable” by the American republic for people of this power to get away with such acts. If I were to conduct my consulting businesses as such, I would loose clientele, suppliers, reputation, reliability, ect. Furthermore, these trends may potentially create a new generation of, “acceptable” behaviors from teens and younger generations. This trend not only frightens me, but a now having more than a decade of poor leadership has already begun to effect our reputation among foreign entities as well.

    Personally, I would choose to have an open socialistic system (as opposed to closed), because that’s really what America is, realize and accept it or not. I would prefer to have socialists that are blatant in their policies, rather that hide in the shadows of political rhetorical untruths and reshuffling of ideas. The philosophy of, “telling the masses what the desire to hear, then turn your back to them for your personal gain” will not hold indefinitely, as history has taught us….but then again, this is how business is taught, right? Profit, at all costs is the ultimate goal.

    Then were do our American allegiance lay? I would be willing to bet that if I were to offer you gentlemen ten times you current compensation ratio to reposition you ideals, the majority of you, following traditional American norms, would forgo your allegiance for monetary gain. I must admit I do not blame the Bush’s because I would likely be quite tempted to embrace the aforementioned myself.

    In my opinion, through offering a brief synopsis, I would state that our county is in serious need of leadership. The blatant and outlandish dis-concern with governmental operations has seemingly left the control of the originally designed system of checks and balances. As most control managers would state, once a projectile leaves control, it will assume the run away train theory. Moore’s movie posed some interesting debate issues, but makes me think even more so regarding the loss of control of our system.

    We the people…this was the statement that supposedly initiated our great nation.

    Thus, whom does the government answer to? Who will audit their performance? Who will punish poor quality assurance and control regarding their operations? Ect??? (Answer…no one). Personally, I wish that I had this much latitude in my business. Why should there be concern regarding government operations, in reality they answer to no one.

    Again, like so many other operations that have failed, America also doomed to fail. Fore example, the Ming dynasty allocated too many funds to the great wall and thus the economy collapsed, Rome allocated too many funds to land acquisition and expansion, its economy collapsed…and now America is allocating funds to a futile war (well, not futile for those capitalizing, so I do agree that the war in funding some, but primarily polarized business operations strategically placed for profit alone and exasperated on average Americans income curve).

    Having business contact in Iraq at the moment I also find it interesting the pictures the American media portrays Iraq as. There are numerous “green” zones that have never seen warfare. Of course, these are the upper portions of Iraq society, but in all reality, not much different than allot of, “Naples” of America. Again, I find it interested because I have contacts that the average American does not have access to so I feel as though my conclusions are much more reputable and conclusive.

    Regardless and aside from my plethora of ambiguous opinions and Moore’s endocrine, the movie itself was insightful and interesting and well worth the $8.50 as apposed the weekly box office runner up…..White Chicks (which was viewed in 70% more theaters nationwide that 9/11)…..

    Regards,

    likeyoudontknow@hotmail.com
     
  11. F430xxx

    F430xxx Formula Junior

    Jun 11, 2004
    749
    it's hard to imagine but the reality has always been in the interests of business over and above the wishes and demands of the people. HOWEVER it seems to me that the current administration has pushed every limit imaginably. Nonetheless I am sure Moore's documentary isn't the only one thats going to surface in the days ahead.

    DK
     
  12. sfrazier

    sfrazier Karting
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    May 18, 2004
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    SeanF
    Saw the movie yesterday and would say that it would most likely not change people's opinions one way or the other. If someone is predisposed to a particular viewpoint (be it to the left or the right) they will look for points that support their thinking and I would guess that few far right folks will even go see this movie. I think someone mentioned this in the thread earlier that if you look hard enough you will find the data that supports you posistion. This being said however there are two items that deeply disturb me about the data uncovered by Mr. Moore.

    1) That the Carlyle group is allowed to flourish and continue it's close ties to the white house given it's meetings with the Taliban, and that the Afghanistan pipeline is now on track - with all the oil fat cats getting even more rich in the process -and-
    2) Bush/Cheney can be so blatant and arrogant about their ties to these big $$ characters. The least they could do is have the common decency to hide the fact that they are raping and pillaging the American people like so many who came before, but these guys seem to think they are above the law.

    Another comment that I will make is that you may not like Michael Moore's politics, and there are some very sobbering moments in this film, but he also has a great sense of humor and some of things he presents and the way in which they are presented are very funny indeed. Informative and entertaining! what a great combination.
     
  13. wax

    wax Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 20, 2003
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    Dirty Harry
    Factual?

    I've got a bridge...
     
  14. lashss

    lashss F1 Rookie

    Nov 26, 2003
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    Since we're discussing potentially political subjects using a Ferrari forum...

    DO NOT see The Terminal starring Tom Hanks. It was terrible, I wish I could get that 2 hours of my rapidly aging life back.

    LS
     
  15. GarnetRedCoupe

    GarnetRedCoupe Formula Junior

    Mar 21, 2004
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    Steve
    lol... thanks for the heads up
     
  16. absent

    absent F1 Veteran
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    mark k.
    This site is increasingly more populated by ignorant,"follow the liar" dummies or is infiltrated by Moveon.org apparatchiks.
    Moore himself,just recently admitted that the movie is not completely "factual" and that it represents his own opinions and speculations mostly.
    Bin Laden's relatives were allowed to leave the US indeed,by personal order of none other but the darling of the liberal lefties himself,infamous mr Clark.(clinton's leftover)
     
  17. lashss

    lashss F1 Rookie

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    Speaking of LIBERAL LEFTIES...

    My left front tire on the 348 is wearing differently when compared to the right...I wonder if the car was weighted properly before aligned last time...

    If you want it done right, do it yourself!

    LS
     
  18. sindo308qv

    sindo308qv F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
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    "FACTUAL", please,I've never seen more propaganda, and twisted lies in a "documentary" in a while. Don't waste your money. Do some research and see how Moore badmouths the United States and it's citizens at every chance he gets, not only here but overseas as well,which especially ticks me off.How can he compare the Iraqi insurgents and terrorist to our Minute men from the revolutionary war. He also wants us to appologize to the Iraqis for what we've done.Is it any wonder the french love him and gave him the Palm D' or at Cannes! It's amazing how quickly people forget 9/11.
     
  19. ciao baby

    ciao baby Formula Junior

    Feb 15, 2004
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    Michael Karagiannis
    Now I feel bad so I am apologizing. Did not realize that by letting me drive your car for only a few minutes It would throw off the alignment ;). If it makes you feel any better my m5's alignment is almost correct after having BMWOS do a four wheel alignment. the steering wheel points to one oclock instead of two now :( Probably due to too much souvlaki in the owner
    ///MK
     
  20. F430xxx

    F430xxx Formula Junior

    Jun 11, 2004
    749
    Grant there's been a tremendous amount of heat suroounding this documentry however what I find interesting is the involvement of political power, influence intertwined in the business world. Maybe I should hire a few Ex Politician's hahaah. We all have known that money & politics go hand in hand so there's nothing new about seeing how the Carlyle Group wields a tremendous amount of influence. DK
     
  21. F430xxx

    F430xxx Formula Junior

    Jun 11, 2004
    749

    Ciao Baby
    you're awfully quiet...............hahahhhhahhah I know I know. It's tough being a billionaire & a Republican, hahahahahah

    Jimmy Buffet Saturday, You going!!!!!
     
  22. ciao baby

    ciao baby Formula Junior

    Feb 15, 2004
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    Michael Karagiannis
    I am not a Billionaire ...yet
    If I was I would give you all the credit,
    when are we going to buy his and his merci's?
    ///MK
    ANd yes I think Moore is a D!lD0!
     
  23. bimmer32five

    bimmer32five Formula Junior

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    i like moore...don't like bush. (george, and i prefer shaved )
     
  24. bludevil12

    bludevil12 Formula 3
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    I dont see how people can believe the supports in this movie. I mean, this is Moore's way of expressing his opinions. It almost seems like he makes up tons of stories criticizing our govt and president. This also kinda sums up a big part of American society, if it was in a movie, well its gotta be true! Although, I agree with others, parts of it are mildly humorous and entertaining. Just my take,
    David
     
  25. kali9934

    kali9934 Rookie

    Mar 12, 2004
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    Dennis Cook
    "1. The Saudi American embassy has six secret service agents providing personal security at all times in which our American tax dollars indirectly fund."

    So do all of the embassys under current law. Your point?


    2. Twenty-four members of Binladin’s family were escorted from the county immediately following 9/11 without even being so much as questioned?"


    Mr. Clark gave the order for those planes to be released. Furthermore, they were questioned and found to be not suspects. Finally, the plane that Mr. Moore sites didn't even go to Saudi Arabia.


    "5. Binladin family has transmitted $1.4 billion dollars in family business directly to Bush family business venture operations."
    Six Degrees of seperation.

    that former president Bush didn’t join the Carlyle advisory board until April, 1998—five months after Carlyle had already sold BDM to another defense firm. True enough, the former president was paid for one speech to Carlyle and then made an overseas trip on the firm’s behalf the previous fall, right around the time BDM was sold. But Ullman insists any link between the former president’s relations with Carlyle and the Saudi contracts to BDM that were awarded years earlier is entirely bogus. “The figure is inaccurate and misleading,” said Ullman. “The movie clearly implies that the Saudis gave $1.4 billion to the Bushes and their friends. But most of it went to a Carlyle Group company before Bush even joined the firm. Bush had nothing to do with BDM.”
    ...
    In response to inquiries from NEWSWEEK about the Carlyle issue, Lehane shot back this week with a volley of points: There were multiple Bush “connections” to the Carlyle Group throughout the period of the Saudi contracts to BDM, Lehane noted in an e-mail, including the fact that the firm’s principals included James Baker (Secretary of State during the first Bush administration) and Richard Darman (the first Bush’s OMB chief). Moreover, George W. Bush himself had his own Carlyle Group link: between 1990 and 1994, he served on the board of another Carlyle-owned firm, Caterair, a now defunct airline catering firm.

    But unmentioned in “Fahrenheit/911,” or in the Lehane responses, is a considerable body of evidence that cuts the other way. The idea that the Carlyle Group is a wholly owned subsidiary of some loosely defined “Bush Inc.” concern seems hard to defend. Like many similar entities, Carlyle boasts a roster of bipartisan Washington power figures. Its founding and still managing partner is David Rubenstein, a former top domestic policy advisor to Jimmy Carter. Among the firm’s senior advisors is Thomas “Mack” McLarty, Bill Clinton’s former White House chief of staff, and Arthur Levitt, Clinton’s former chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission. One of its other managing partners is William Kennard, Clinton’s chairman of the Federal Communications Commission. Spokesman Ullman was the Clinton-era spokesman for the SEC.

    As for the president’s own Carlyle link, his service on the Caterair board ended when he quit to run for Texas governor—a few months before the first of the Saudi contracts to the unrelated BDM firm was awarded. Moreover, says Ullman, Bush “didn’t invest in the [Caterair] deal and he didn’t profit from it.” (The firm was a big money loser and was even cited by the campaign of Ann Richards, Bush’s 1994 gubernatorial opponent, as evidence of what a lousy businessman he was.)

    "Afghanistan pipeline is now on track "

    This, as conspiracy theories go, is more than a stretch. Unocal’s interest in building the Afghan pipeline is well documented. Indeed, according to “Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and Bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to Sept. 10., 2001,” the critically acclaimed book by Washington Post managing editor Steve Coll, Unocal executives met repeatedly with Clinton administration officials throughout the late 1990s in an effort to promote the project—in part by getting the U.S. government to take a more conciliatory approach to the Taliban. “It was an easy time for an American oil executive to find an audience in the Clinton White House,” Coll writes on page 307 of his book. “At the White House, [Unocal lobbyist Marty Miller] met regularly with Sheila Heslin, the director of energy issues at the National Security Council, whose suite next to the West Wing coursed with visitors from American oil firms. Miller found Heslin…very supportive of Unocal’s agenda in Afghanistan.”

    Coll never suggests that the Clintonites’ interest in the Unocal project was because of the corrupting influence of big oil. Clinton National Security Council advisor “Berger, Heslin and their White House colleagues saw themselves engaged in a hardheaded synthesis of American commercial interests and national security goals,” he writes. “They wanted to use the profit-making motives of American oil companies to thwart one of the country’s most determined enemies, Iran, and to contain the longer-term ambitions of a restless Russia.”

    Whatever the motive, the Unocal pipeline project was entirely a Clinton-era proposal: By 1998, as the Taliban hardened its positions, the U.S. oil company pulled out of the deal. By the time George W. Bush took office, it was a dead issue—and no longer the subject of any lobbying in Washington. (Vice President Dick Cheney’s energy task force report in May, 2001, makes no reference to it.) There is no evidence that the Taliban envoy who visited Washington in March, 2001—and met with State Department and National Security Council officials—ever brought up the pipeline. Nor is there any evidence anybody in the Bush administration raised it with him. The envoy brought a letter to Bush offering negotiations to resolve the issue of what should be done with bin Laden. (A few weeks earlier, Taliban leader Mullah Omar had floated the idea of convening a tribunal of Islamic religious scholars to review the evidence against the Al Qaeda leader.) The Taliban offer was promptly shot down. “We have not seen from the Taliban a proposal that would meet the requirements of the U.N. resolution to hand over Osama bin Laden to a country where he can be brought to justice,” State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said at the time.


    Just to show you how factual the "documentary" actually is.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5335853/site/newsweek/site/newsweek

    http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723
    Please take the time to research Mr. Moores "facts". You will learn quickly he has long had a tendancy to bend the truth for his own message.
     

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