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Anyone track their 458 Speciale regularly?

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by MTribe, Oct 3, 2019.

  1. MTribe

    MTribe Rookie

    Mar 18, 2013
    15
    San Francisco, CA
    Looking to connect with a few others to compare notes on brakes and such... DM me or respond here. Thanks!
     
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  2. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    Jul 25, 2008
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    What difference is there with a Italia ?

    None imo ...
     
  3. obbob

    obbob Formula Junior

    Aug 14, 2017
    701
    That's such an inaccurate statement I don't even know where to begin.
     
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  4. FFan5

    FFan5 Karting

    Jul 7, 2018
    214
    The brakes are different in the Speciale? Cool! I hadn't read that. More info would be great!
     
  5. MTribe

    MTribe Rookie

    Mar 18, 2013
    15
    San Francisco, CA
    Key differences that might be relevant for track use are bigger brakes (same as La Ferrari), and a traction control aspect (SSC—side slip control). Also 200lbs lighter, but it’s probably not as light on consumables due to reduced weight like an Elise.. : )

    FWIW, I believe the 488 has the same brakes as the Speciale?, and a version newer of SSC (SSC2).
     
  6. FFan5

    FFan5 Karting

    Jul 7, 2018
    214
    SSC only matters if you leave the car in Race mode or below, right?
     
  7. MTribe

    MTribe Rookie

    Mar 18, 2013
    15
    San Francisco, CA
    #7 MTribe, Oct 4, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
    Here’s what the manual says (p.71):

    - WET (level 1): designed to help ensure stability and maximizes traction on every type of road surface, both in low and very low grip conditions, by means of engine and brake control (in this condition, the standard ASR system is activated instead of the F1-Trac function).
    (My summary: standard stability control—no F1-Trac traction control, no SSC)

    - SPORT (level 2): designed to help ensure stability and maximizes traction only in medium- to high-grip conditions by optimizing engine and brake control.
    (My summary: F1-Trac traction control, no SSC)

    - RACE (level 3): enhances the racing features of the vehicle by reducing engine control to a minimum and maximizing brake control. This mode is designed to help ensure stability on a race track in high grip conditions only.
    (My summary: F1-Trac traction control, SSC).

    - CT OFF (level 4): further enhances the racing style performance of the vehicle. F1-Trac traction control is deactivated whereas stability control remains active when a certain level of sideslip is exceeded. F1-Trac traction control is off. Stability is NOT guaranteed.
    (My summary: F1-Trac traction control off, SSC)

    - ESC OFF (level 5): ESC off. Stability is NOT guaranteed, but all the other auxiliary systems such as the ABS, EBD, and the E-Diff 3 electronic differential remain active. During braking, the VDC system remains active.
    (My summary: F1-Trac traction control off, SSC off, ABS active, E-Diff active)

    Manual says:

    “Slide Slip angle Conrol. In RACE and CT OFF modes SSC helps to ensure the maximum grip possible in relation to the driving conditions. The system uses specific sensors and an algorithm to determine lateral acceleration, yaw angle, steering wheel angle, and speed. The SSC system analyses the vehicle slip angle in real time and compares it against ideal reference values to optimize engine torque delivery (through the F1-Trac traction control system) and more effectively distribute the torque transmitted through the differential across the two drive wheels (via the E-Diff electronic differential).” (p. 131)

    “The Electronic Stability Control (ESC) consists of two main systems:
    - VDC (vehicle dynamics control), performed through the braking system
    - F1-Trac traction control, performed through engine torque modulation, depending on maximum grip on the road and secondary systems that are always active such as ABS and EBD (electronic brake force distribution)” (p. 71)

    “F1-Trac is a traction control system which was derived directly from Ferrari’s expertise in F1 vehicles. F1-Trac is faster and more accurate than traditional traction control systems and is capable of delaying and minimizing engine torque adjustments as required in order to ensure the desired trajectory. The system estimates the maximum available grip in advance, by continuously monitoring the relative wheel speed and using an auto-adaptive operating logic. Comparing this information with the vehicle dynamics model stored in the control system, F1-Trac helps optimize the vehicle behavior by controlling engine torque delivery. F-1 Trac does not work in CT OFF and ESC OFF modes. The main feature that distinguishes the F1-Trac system from a traditional traction control system lies in its ability to estimate grip level accurately which allows the driver to make fully use of the vehicle’s performance driving potential. The F1-Trac system is designed to provide maximum traction when coming out of corners, driving stability and ease even under extreme driving conditions, and driving comfort. On this vehicle, integration of the F1-Trac and E-Diff 3 systems helps provide maximum performance and stability.” (p.72)

    “E-Diff 3. This vehicle is equipped with an electronic differential, working on the rear axle, which continually performs a variable check on the locking between the two axle shafts... integrated with the F1-Trac traction control, is capable of improving performance, directional stability of the vehicle, active safety even when close to grip limit, driving comfort and handling. The system is based on the analysis and forecast of vehicle performance in almost all possible conditions. The is done by continually monitoring the pressure of the clutch actuator on the differential. The input signals are the dynamic parameters of the vehicle that the control system translates into a torque difference between the two driving wheels. On corners, the electronic differential can stability the vehicle when the accelerator pedal is released by locking the rear axle, control vehicle dynamics by locking the differential according to lateral acceleration and vehicle speed, and maximizing vehicle stability and, at the same time, acceleration on corners by locking the differential according to lateral acceleration, speed, engaged gear and torque produced by the engine. To obtain these results, the electronic differential system interacts with the F1-Trac, ESC, ABS, and F1 gearbox and suspension damping control.” (p.71)

    Cool stuff! Though I’m not totally sure the relationship between F1-Trac and SSC. Sounds like SSC may be a higher performance mode within F1-Trac (see SSC description), but in CT OFF F1-Trac is off while SSC is still on? Does that mean SSC is only controlling the E-Diff in that mode?
     
  8. italiafan

    italiafan F1 World Champ

    Jul 19, 2006
    10,049
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    My Speciale is always CT Off....if heavy rain then Sport mode.
    I grew up driving cars without ABS in New England winters...the control of the car is your responsibility as the driver.
     
  9. TiptonInAustin

    Feb 16, 2015
    11
    I guess there is some SSC with TC Off, but I don't think it matters on the track. It only engages in more extreme angles, and if you go there, you weren't going to set a fast lap anyhow, IMO. I think it is safe to say the Speciale's updated SSC is only useful if you are in Race mode or below. (I've passed a Speciale on the back straight of COTA in my Italia. I think your exit speed from T11 is more important than the Speciale's better power/weight ratio)
     
  10. MTribe

    MTribe Rookie

    Mar 18, 2013
    15
    San Francisco, CA
    I was able to play with each mode to get a feel for it. I’m not sure exactly how each of the systems work, but here was my real-world observation:

    - Sport. Stability control kicks in like a “wall.” When the rear end of the car starts stepping out, stability control stops it completely at a tight angle. Feels like hitting a virtual “wall” to prevent the car from rotating. Intervention is abrupt.

    - Race. F1-Trac really shines. The stability control “wall” is no longer there. The degree to which you notice intervention depends on how hard you force it to take action. For example, if you nail the throttle coming out of a turn, you’ll feel it intervene rather abruptly to prevent you from spinning. It felt like it does prevent the car from spinning In this mode. The beauty of it is when you gradually approach the limit, it feathers in very subtly. Sometimes I had to look at the indicator light to see if was intervening at a given moment. Turning in, it feathers in to prevent the car from rotating too much as you trail off the brakes. Mid-turn, keeps the rear end from stepping out too much. Same on exit. Again, if you approach the limit hard, it intervenes abruptly, but if you approach it gradually, it feathers in beautifully. Definitely “hero” mode.

    - CT Off. With the F1-Trac off, SSC (side slip control) is still active. F1-Trac won’t feather in to keep the rear on from stepping on on corner exit, for example. However, if you approach the limit gradually, it did step in to prevent a spin at a pretty big slip angle to save you. However, you can still spin in this mode! If you nail the throttle on exit, you will spin even with SSC on. It felt like this “catches” you at a pretty big slip angle, as long as you’re not approaching that angle too quickly (like nailing the throttle out for turn).

    Hope that helps. Would love to hear others’ experiences.
     
  11. dustman

    dustman F1 Veteran
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    Jun 12, 2007
    5,054
    What difference is there??? Uninformed.
     
  12. MTribe

    MTribe Rookie

    Mar 18, 2013
    15
    San Francisco, CA
    For those of you on track, how many days have you gotten out of the carbon ceramic rotors?

    Anyone switch to steel?
     
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  13. mdrums

    mdrums Formula Junior

    Jun 11, 2006
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    Mike
    This is THE #1 question. Also how does the F1 transmission hold up, how often is the transmission fluid changed when tracking. Good luck getting your answers as I have yet to get these answers for the 488.
     
  14. FFan5

    FFan5 Karting

    Jul 7, 2018
    214
    I have no first hand experience with this, but I will say the wear on the pads is minimal with CT Off, while I know someone who went through his rear pads in two or three track days in Race mode.

    As for the rotors, I'm not going to find out, but I did talk to a Ferrari mechanic at a Ferrari track day, and he said he has never replaced a rotor because of wear and tear. I would imagine you could do 15-20 track days with no problem, but if you use Race mode, you'll generate more heat and shorten the life of everything.
     
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  15. MTribe

    MTribe Rookie

    Mar 18, 2013
    15
    San Francisco, CA
    Couple thoughts... My rotors were not visibly worn or scored with 10k miles and no track use. After 2 days on track, all were visibly scored, and especially the rears. I had heard the traction control shortened the life of the rear rotors and pads, so was aware of when it was active by watching the light on the dash. I believe for the most part, I was not using F1-Trac, only intentionally invoking it to see how it worked. So I doubt the rear rotor wear was primarily the result of traction control.

    A friend has a Pista with 3500 miles, and he’s already had to replace pads and rotors once. Though he’s a semi-professional race driver on a track that’s known to be hard on brakes, so perhaps especially hard use and that track were factors.

    My hypothesis is the rears wear out faster (assuming you’re not deep into traction control regularly) since the rotor diameter is so much smaller in back (especially on the Speciale), with less ability to dissipate heat. My understanding is that heat is what makes carbon ceramics not last a really long time.

    I will report back as mine wear further.
     
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  16. Avia11

    Avia11 Formula Junior
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    Jan 21, 2017
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    Hahahaahha. Is this in jest? I assume? Lol. There are considerable differences...
     
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  17. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    Jul 25, 2008
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    I meant, is there a difference in performance friend Avia11 (or what is your name buddy ?) ?

    Factory specs say that my Italia is faster :eek:
     
  18. 3POINT8

    3POINT8 Formula 3

    Jan 23, 2014
    2,122
    doesn't sound like anyone tracks their speciale.
     
  19. Avia11

    Avia11 Formula Junior
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    Jan 21, 2017
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    Hi Mel,
    Do you mean the factory in maranello, eg. Ferrari? what specs are you referring to? please post them, I am super interested in seeing this! My understanding is that there is a significant difference in performance. According to Ferrai, they say they dropped weight on the speciale, added new slide slip control software, added new aero, bumped the HP on the speciale, and modulated the torque... but you're saying the "factory" specs suggest that your italia is faster? Please post! Does anyone else know how/why this would be true?
    -A
     
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  20. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2017
    3,092
    France
    According to theperfs (which compiles data from available sources), the 458 Speciale is faster in all metrics except top speed (for only 2 kph) and 80 to 180 kph (first is probably due to gear ratio, while second is probably due to a very limited sample since this is not a common measure).
    So the Speciale is certainly faster (particularly on track) - and so is the 488 compared to the Speciale :D
    Regarding factory specs, the top speed is the same between the Italia and Speciale (325 kph) and all other measures are better for the Speciale.
     
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  21. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    Jul 25, 2008
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    Well, I meant the topspeed indeed ….

    You can find these data in the various publications and handbooks ...

    Like our friend LVP488 says: 458 Italia beats the Speciale in top speed … amazing isn't it ?

    I have seen many drivers in Italias beat Speciale drivers but that must have bee the drivers with less experience.

    I also saw 2 Scuderias of he Pozzi team beat 458's and Speciales often ...
     
  22. Avia11

    Avia11 Formula Junior
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    Jan 21, 2017
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    Well lets look at what the "factory" says. Screenshots attached. None of the above Italia claims are supported. The top speed for both cars is the same according to Ferrari or the "factory" right? Fiorano lap times are also provided.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  23. Corvus

    Corvus Rookie

    May 10, 2007
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    Bhh, Avia11, MTribe and 1 other person like this.
  24. mdrums

    mdrums Formula Junior

    Jun 11, 2006
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    Corvus, beautiful 458!
     
  25. MTribe

    MTribe Rookie

    Mar 18, 2013
    15
    San Francisco, CA
    Love the spec and great to see on track! If we’re getting into pics, here’s one from Laguna Seca on a wet day...

     

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