Are all A & Ps retarded?

Art, I've heard very bad stories.

One example, I had a friend that owned a jet. The company doing his annual found "something" that wasn't FAA cert. and billed him considerably for it. The company closed and the next company found the workmanship faulty and it all had to be redone. I believe the people involved with the scam are in another company now. Probably doing the same thing.

It really pays to look around for a reputable shop. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with yours.

 

I don't think I'm retarded, but other people might argue that point. I have an A&P, but I have to admit, I'm not a "practicing" A&P. I know from personal experience that the entire inspection should be completed first, then they determine what's airworthy and not airworthy, they give you a squawk list, you authorize the repairs and THEN they should order parts.

Unless you have authorized to them "fix whatever they find, no matter what", they should do the entire inspection first, then order parts. I have run into situations where something is broken or beyond limits and they need it fixed first, before they can test the entire system. That does happen from time to time.

 

Art, it isn't nice to generalize like that. It makes you sound like a typical pilot

 

How many aircraft owners have scratches on the paint near the inspection panels where the mechanics use powered screwdrivers or the aircraft comes out of the shop with dirty handprints all over it. If these mechanics worked on Ferraris I think they would be terminated from their job but in aviation it seems to be the standard.

 

My experience: Much like Ferrari mechanics or any professional, once you find a good A/P or I/A, they are to be treasured and paid whatever they ask. It's worth it.

That's the way it is with warbirds and round engines.

 

I've discovered that there is a very distinct form of math that occurs among A&Ps. As a rule, in order to know the actual amount, you must take the initial estimate and at least double it.

To add to that, I'm in legal action right now concerning a repair that was improperly performed just prior to the purchase of my aircraft. A main structural support in the right main gear was never installed and had been indicated as installed in the the repair bill. I'm just glad I'm particularly focused on my preflight inspection, because it could have been a very bad day for me and my passenger...the gear was VERY close to failure.

Kind of unrelated, but today I received a bill today for a $1,000 repair of a Garmin GTX 327. WTF? Never mind the fact that it's still under warranty! For $500 or so more I could have bought a new one!!! What the hell did they do to it?

Anyway, suck it up, right?

 

BTW, Russ, I saw the Forza article. VERY nice! The Mondial looks great, and I love the pics with the planes!

 

Quite a few of them find their way into the car business in California because they can make more money working on cars in this area. What a cluster F###. Every single A+P I have worked with could not hold a job repairing cars. I am sure there are good ones but I have never worked with one. We have had guys from the big United operation in SF work for us and the stories are unbelieveable. That is what has always prevented me from getting into flying, won't do it unless I owned my own airplane and was responsible for the service. The fact that is does not rain airplanes is because airplanes are designed and built so well, not because they are so well repaired and that comes from the mouths of the A+P's I have worked with.

 

+1. I have one or two people I trust who will work on my plane. Other than that, it may be worth my time to eventually get an A&P. This landing gear fiasco, coupled with a number of other recent horror stories from other owner/pilots, has caused me to seriously question the talent, ability, and common sense of the people who work on our planes. There seems to be a lot of, "Aww, that looks OK", by-rack-of-eye work being done. Never mind the fact that it's dangerous, we also pay dearly for this substandard bull$%^t.

 

This seems to be a trend in many things now in the USA. There seems to be a lack of self pride and responsibility ingrained in our young people. I grew up with hot rodders and flyer / mechanics who not only knew how to do many things well but they assumed responsibility for it and backed it up. I'm proud to say that all five of my sons do not march with these people. One is an outstanding auto mechanic / machinist, one( Spasso) owns a Ferrari TR and several BMW's that he keeps in immaculate condition, one is a pilot / mechanic who cares for several cars and airplanes and keeps them in A-1 shape, one drives an 18 wheeler and does all of his own mechanical work and has built some great hot cars, and one is an officer in the Army and has performed with distinction. It wasn't easy to keep all of them aimed but it was sure worth it when I see what they are and who they are.
SWitches

 

Just a simple question before I wade into this thread....have any of you actually worked in maintenance? Or have an A&P/AME license?

 

I have a feeeeling I know where this is going

I do not and have not. Now, as was said before, there are people who are good, surely...but there are always more meager to average ability folks in every field. The problem with aviation is that 1) that's expensive and 2) that's dangerous.

I'm a musician by trade, and the unfortunate truth is that probably 99% of people who play instruments/sing are NOT musicians. They are people, some with far overblown ideas of their abilities, who like to play and have some musical gear. That does not make you a musician, yet they continue to posture themselves as such, thinking they have the goods. Nope. There's an "X factor" that is missing, some little something that keeps them from quite getting there with their playing, but they are oblivious. Maybe they didn't practice enough and spent too much time posing for chicks. Maybe they just lack the talent. The bottom line? These people simply should not be musicians. The same goes for every other field.

And one more thing...my turn coordinator went south a little while ago. The avionics shop quoted $2,700 for a rebuild. I found a new unit for $1,300. Nice.

 

My comments were not meant to denigrate ALL mechanics because I know of too many who are flawless in their work and reliable. I am noting that in the past 50 years there has been a decline in the hands -on knowledge, proper use of tools, decline in good ol' American ingenuity, and a decline in personal integrity. When I was flying with my son in a Cardinal (retractable) the nose gear came down but didn't lock. He managed to keep it from collapsing and got out on the taxi strip and worked in manually. The nose wheel well was absolutely swimming in engine oil and filthy. I mentioned that it was probably time for a thorough check up. He then said that it had just come out of the shop from an " overhaul". This is what I'm getting at.
I have been a mechanic in the air force and at the Boeing Co. and know good from bad. I was a training instructor and course developer for 12 years there and when we had to train hundreds of mechanics during the rapid build up in 1961-64 we could not find young men locally who knew how to use even the simplest of tools. We had to rewrite the courses to include things like how to read, how to use the decimal system, how to use a use a decimal scale, micrometer, crescent wrenches, and then work their way up to the fancy stuff like drilling and reaming. It was pathetic in the beginning but we did get some great kids out of it who went on to become supervisors but they were in the minority. Again, I know some great mechanics but they, too, are in the minority.
Switches

 

i have an A&P , and i work for Gulfstream / General Dynamics as a Senior Mechanic.

far as know i am not retarded.

sorry to read about your troubles ART. perhaps you should have an IA keeping the A&P's on the ball. i need to get my IA, but have been busy the the G650 and other projects.

fly by light, fly by wire is the new future.

in aircraft and cars.

Michael

 

Most shops have very few certified A&Ps or IAs. The employees that perform most of the work on the aircraft are just people off the street. You don't have to be certified by the FAA to take apart or assemble aircraft. You just need an IA to sign off and hopefully look over what work was done. There are some great IAs out there but you won't find to many of them wanting to work on single engine Piper or Cessna pistons. They will go to the turbines or warbirds.

 

Over 20 years with fighter type aircraft (USAF) and I'd trust over 90% of my compatriots. For example, a near 100% Fully Mission Capable (FMC) rate on the night before Desert Storm was not a fluke.

I used to think that the FAA should have awarded us an A&P upon retirement. The problem with that is we'd have to accept a pay cut.

Sounds like a plan. Just pair up with a good IA and you can't go wrong.

 

To clarify: My question was neither accusatory nor did it have any negitive intent. I simply wished to further understand who in this thread understands both sides of this issue.

In my (albeit fairly limited) experience MANY pilots don't understand the importance behind that signature on the piece paper, and more importantly what has to happen for the signature to get there.

I'm no expert (nor do I pretend to be), but I do have a few years experience as an AME here in Canada and it's tough to satisfy everyone. On the one hand operators and airplane owners want their plane back yesterday, and on the other hand I am attaching my name to the work. In the case of the annual inspection that "work" is the entire airplane. Consequently I'm going to make damn sure before I sign the book that my work is correct, safe, and done with care and pride. Sometimes unfortunatly I notice something that's "off" at the last second, or get into a short pitot/static check and find a mess of pitot/static leaks that have to be fixed. The CARS/FARS dictate the standards and I have to abide by them not much I can do about it. The only thing I can do is do my best to minimize those inconveniences...

As an AME I am prone to self pressure, I consistantly find myself thinking two steps ahead and have to slow myself down and step back regularly. This seems to be the A&P in questions issue and he responds when he can't do the work by (that or he's just lazy). Regardless he should have ON HAND all the parts that are changed at the annual (bushings, gaskets, etc.) and have procedures to be able to move on with the inspection...that being said there ARE times when it's preferable to stop the work and rectify something before moving on.

As for a lack of hand skills: That's been my battle for the last several years since I got into this buisness. I had NONE when I started, it's been a long tough road learning stupid **** that I feel like I should know and I'm expected to know. Thankfully I've had some very patient supervisors and crew chiefs who have been kind enough to anwser my stupid questions and show me the ropes. A LOT of the hand skills aren't so much using the tools, but using them efficently IMHO, that's the tough part.

so yeah, that's my 2c to add to the thread. I hope I don't come off sounding preachy.
-David

 

You basically did buy a new one....in the old case

Garmin does not "repair" their units, i.e. go in at the board level, troubleshoot the fault and then repair the board accordingly.

Instead the maintenance manual for the GTX320 (which I have sitting beside me) lists 5 parts. A display board, a main board, a control/faceplate module,a chassis, and a power supply.

That's it.

Anytime it goes back to garmin (which it has too) they change the appropriate module....it's a STUPID system in my opinion and is a ****ing cash cow for Garmin. KT76A is the way to go for a panel mount transponder IMHO....

 

Wow...how the world must look when viewed from above all of us.

 

Well, seriously now, we are pilots here, right?

But really, can you deny that? Can you honestly say that everyone who is compelled to come into a certain profession needs to be there? If you took my post as being some kind of attempt at tooting my own horn (no pun intended), you're entitled to your opinion...but you're wrong. I have confidence in my abilities and the job that I perform, yes. Above all else, though, I believe that someone who is truly good at what they do cares about their work and the quality with which they do it, and NEVER feels good enough or at the absolute top of their game. The antithesis of that would be the person who is too confident to realize their shortcomings and becomes too comfortable.

Anyway, you may call it arrogance; I call it stating the brutal truth.

BTW, Blue@Heart -- I didn't mean to sound defensive. Just wanted to make sure that you knew we're not all saying that all A&Ps are retarded I'm sure there is a lot of juggling and that there are many things to consider before returning an aircraft to service. Unfortunately, the people who last worked on my plane are dangerously retarded.

 

Glad you caught the pun...

Sure there are those that are better and those that are worse but does that alone set the criteria for being a "musician"? Honestly, music is such a personal thing I really believe it a poor comparison.

For instance I would rather be water-boarded than listen to anything Yoko Ono has put out, yet Rolling Stone rates her latest with 4 stars and to top it off has this to say "At 76, her music remains truly vital: unsettling, touching, funny, undeniable."

(trust me my real goal here is to defend my right to call myself a musician even though I really am a hack)

 

Yoko Ono! Check this out, you'll LOVE it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9kgu71d81U&feature=PlayList&p=A065199D49B8DC27&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=80

1:19 is priceless, as is Chuck Berry's reaction. Hehehe...

Honestly, I don't mean to put anyone down, and I definitely encourage anyone who wants to play to stick with it. I'm talking about a whole different world, anyway. But, you are right that it maybe isn't the best comparison, especially when you consider no one will die from a bad musical performance (but I have come close Really, I'm just saying that I like to run, and I'm in good shape and am decently fast. I realize, though, that I'm no Olympic sprinter, and I have a hard time referring to myself as "a runner".

BTW, you're only a hack if you think you AREN'T one.

Anyway, to come back to the OT, I just found out that my gear lights are giving reverse indications because they may have messed up the wiring before they buttoned the plane back up. Dear God...