Are Ferrari Challenge Drivers Egomaniac Wanna-bes?

You can't paint all Challenge drivers with the same brush. However, the cynical race driver in me says that if Challenge drivers were serious about racing they'd be in a proper sports car series like ALMS or Rolex. With the absurdly low driver requirements, the Challenge talent pool is perhaps a tad shallow. Is there any satisfaction winning races against grids of rank amateurs?

 

Ron,

I was supposed to compete in the 2001 series but never actually raced, so my opinion is that of an outsider though I know most of the people involved in the series.

I believe the view of many people (which may or may not be the correct view) including myself is that at some point the series changed it's nature and became something it wasn't supposed to be when it originated.

I was at one of the first 348 Challenge races back in the inaugural season at Watkins Glen when Phil Hill's son won the race. I was in my early 20's then and told myself if I ever had the funds I wanted to race in that series. At the time it was 99% people who loved Ferraris and had no prior race experience. It was a great concept and the costs were cheap (if any racing involving a Ferrari can be called cheap) . At the time it was about 1/3rd the cost compared to running a Porsche in IMSA in the lower rungs of professional racing and the people all shared a passion for Ferraris.

When I attended that same race as a spectator at the Glen in 2001 the series had clearly changed and in my opinion not for the better. The cost to run the series had now balooned to a point that it was either on par with running a professional race team in ALMS or Grand Am. People were showing up with back up cars, teams had spare engines with them as back ups. One person who was in the points lead is purported to have crashed both his car (practice) and his backup car (qualifying) and was rumored to be running around the paddock making offers to the Group B guys for a 360 C.

I also know of some pretty rampant cheating going on. At least two of my friends, one of whom is a respected racer on this forum bought 355 Challenge cars. Both people found drop gears and all sorts of modifications to their gearboxes when the had to rebuild them.

I also think at some point saftey was compromised as there was at least one particpant who should have never been given a race license. I am sure you know him as he competed in 01 (and Grand Am where his license was revoked). He was regulary lapped in group B by all the drivers including the 355 's.

Basically, from my point of view, the series became more competitve (witness the two motorcycle guys from Italy that raced in the series), more costly, and a bit loose on the regulations.

The series I watched and followed in it's initial season in which non-racers took their Ferraris out for fun had changed into a series where the dealerships competed fiercly against one another, to the point of cheating and spending whatever it took to win.

At it's height, it took $500,000 to run up front which is ludicrous when you can run in Grand Am or ALMS for that with a mid pack team.

I will preface my opinion with some bias. As stated I was supposed to run a limited schedule in 01. I bought the last remaining Challenge kit to have my street 355 converted and was assured by FNA that I could do 3 or 4 races. The car was completed in early 01 and I attended a test session at Watkins Glen wich several dealers attended. I posted lap times that were close to the front runners. Ironically the gentleman who won the 355 title that year was the most helpful. He spend time helping me with setup options and coaching. However, I suspect that possibly several other 355 racers weren't happy with my unexpected performance. Several of them questioned my particpation in the Skip Barber Formula Dodge series the year before (I competed in the race series for a full season).

Literally a week later FOW called me to inform me that FNA was requiring fees for the entire season. Coincidence, maybe but I still smell a rat. I couldn't do the entire season for lack of funds and work schedule.

The perception is that the series changed over the years and not neccessarily for the better.

Again I am an outsider but have a little bit more knowledge than others because of my affiliation with FOW and brief foray into the series.

There is a very nice gentleman on this forum who has done a ton of work on the series. Hopefully he will post his inside opionion.

Regards,

Jon K.
www.flatoutracing.net

 

Not everybody has the time for a full season commitement. I think the series is great as it gives eager amatures a taste of the real thing, weeds out the true posers, who could afford a LeMans seat and be a danger in that Professional series had the FChallenge not existed.

 

"Ah, the 430 Challenge. Another brilliant addition to the long line of suedo race cars for suedo race drivers. A worthy addition to the ILMS(I Love Me Series). Air jacks...........please.....they don't change tires during Challenge races. Perhaps they are going to use them to keep the drivers from running into one another."


Why pay any attention to this? I took it as a bit tongue in cheek. I also think air jacks are over the top, but what the heck, that's part of the fun. I've seen folks use tire warmers for SCCA formula car racing - that makes me chuckle, too.

Is the car a pseudo race car? What makes a real race car? Are all production based race cars "pseudo"? Doesn't mean anything to me.

What is a pseudo race car driver? I've participated in all sorts of racing series, loads of 'em, and I don't consider myself a race car driver. If I run in the Rolex series on the strength of my wallet, I'm still just an enthusiast who likes to race. Am I a pseudo?

I've thought very seriously about the Challenge series, and two factors have kept me out. First, the "bumper car" reputation of the series. Second, the cost compared to other amateur and professional series. As Jon notes, for $20k + a race, one has a lot of choices.

I still can't believe that there is no club race series for Ferrari.

 

To me the big question is why do you race ? Its all pretty much an ego thing. But which portion of the ego needs feeding ? The ;" I'm the best driver " part, in which a 45 HP Formula Vee is as good a tool as any, Or the "I'm more affluent" part in which the Challenge series makes a nice outlet.
I personally will lose the affluence competion so I try to compete in the driver catagory. Formula Mazda is my choice.
BTW Peterson won the Runoffs in a FM so he gets Kudos in both of my catagories.

 

I wrote a long reply to this, something which would have ranked among the great literature of our time. And then some combination of an FChat hiccup and my ineptitude sent it to the digital graveyard. Not having the time to redo it, this will have to be somewhat shorter and less specific.

Ron, if the author of the original post is a Real Friend of Yours, I'd say as nicely as possible that you need to get out more. I supppose it's easy to pick on any element of the Ferrari Challenge, particularly if you've never competed nor been involved, but I'm afraid your friend simply demonstrates a fair amount of ignorance of his topic.

I am probably the only person who has known every driver who has ever competed in the North American Ferrari Challenge, from the original Demonstration Event in 1993 to the most recent race this year. In that group have been a few wanna-bes, a few poseurs, a few realliy top-notch drivers, and a lot who have no interest in professional racing, but wish to compete in a Ferrari series, with Ferrari amenities, as a hobby. Not a cheap hobby, certainly, but one these people can (usually) easily afford. Sure, they could complete in the ALMS or GrandAm for the same budget, but most have no interest in moving up to these series. The environment of professional racing is entirely different (and I've been involved in professional racing for a lot of years) and it does NOT provide what most of these drivers seek.

The Challenge is growing again, from a low point caused by a couple of things. The economy, particularly after 9/11, was an issue, and a president of FNA made a number of decisions which did not help the series. (I'm being tactful here; he is no longer with FNA, and the current president have been extremely supportive.)

Jon, I think you got caught up in some of his decisions. There was nothing aimed at you personally; a lot of Challenge drivers have come through Skippy and their race series, and I personally think this is good training for the Challenge. There was an issue somewhere back then (don't remember the year) where an FoW customer tried to buy a Challenge car and hire a professional driver (a Skippy instructor) to race it. You also might have caught a little backlash from this.

Certainly there have been too many crashes; some are more likely in a spec series, whether Spec Rambos or Ferraris. Ron, there is more counselling of drivers than is obvious, as some is done in private. Some are nicely told that OSB (an old Skippy term) and in a few cases, one this year, a driver is banned from further participation in the series. There has been some cheating over the years, although certainly less than rumored. Some of the better stories are urban legends; they never happened. (Again, I was there; most of the story-tellers weren't.)

The overall answer is this: The Challenge is aimed at a particular group of people, drivers who wish to race as a hobby in a Ferrari environment. Their opinions of the series really matter, as they're going to vote with substantial checkbooks. To be really honest, the opinions of someone with a keyboard, modem, and a spelling disorder are going to receive little consideration.

Ron, I hope we do see you back some day. I think you'd like what the series has become. Jon, if you're ever at a race feel free to find me -- I'd be happy to give you somewhat more detail on what might have happened in your situation.

O.G.

P.S. Will, I looked into the possibly of wheel to wheel racing for the FCA years ago. The club's insurance then prohibited racing, and I suspect this hasn't changed. The overall cost to the club (for a relatively small number of members) could not be justified.

 

OG: Hope I didn't seem to be criticizing FCA in my comments about the lack of a club racing series. My sense is that there's very little owner demand for such a series - that's really what surprises me.

I reserve the right to steal this comment of your for future use, it's perfect for so many situations, including this one - well said, I agree completely:

"To be really honest, the opinions of someone with a keyboard, modem, and a spelling disorder are going to receive little consideration."

 

Dr. Earle was a very nice host.....he gave me a hat and a helment pin..

And I still have my signed pic of Ms. Rockwear, with P. Frame.........LOL!

There were some spectacular mishaps at Texas World Speedway.......

If you can't afford to wreck it, you can't afford to race it!
That's the litmus test, I suppose...........

 

As far as personalities go, one of my codrivers explained it best...

"Heck, it doesn't matter WHAT we race, they could turn us all out on tricycles, and the same amount of He11 would break loose!!!"

I thought that was pretty accurate......

 

I didn't mean to offend anyone who participated in the Challenge Series, especially Ron. We have been friends for a very long time and his enthusiasm for racing and Ferrari runs very deep, and I admire the series' that he has been able to participate in.

Part of my comments were to be taken with tongue in cheek. But I do have a serious feeling that Ferrari, as an organization has increasingly attempted to maximize the amount of money taken from each customer.

By creating a racing series that obviously requires deep pockets, allow extremely limited driver ability to participate, as well as requiring that the dealers prepare, maintain and fix the cars.....it is painfully obvious that there will be money to be made in the service and repair end. This is a recipe for lots of service and body work. I believe in the 348 series, the dealers only prepped the cars, the drivers hauled maintained, etc.

Whenever Scottsdale Ferrari's transporter returned from a 360 race weekend, it was hard to determine if they were involved in a race series or a demolition derby(except for Ron...he managed to go 2 seasons with no contact...until the last race...which wasn't his fault). I know of several cars that, during the course of the season had self inflicted accident damage that more than doubled the cost of the car itself. Most amature series that I know of would suspend these drivers...but Ferrari keeps taking their money, fixing the cars and send them out again.

If you don't think that Ferrari is creating the ILMS, just look at the 'Super Enzo' program, the ultimate ILMS. Let's see............."Let's make 20 'race cars' (which are ineligible for any series or have to homologated for road use in any market)....provide the owners of these cars with minimal instruction...give them a few track days........and we are going to take their driving impressions and make them part of the 'test team'". I'm sure there are some very nicely catered lunches that go along with your $1.5M, for our 'special cliente'. Do you really want the input of an inexperienced and probably poorly skilled driver charting the course for future Ferrari's dynamics? I didn't think so............and I doubt that Ferrari really does either. But they will soak 20 or so guys to the tune of $30Million. I bet the $1.5 doesn't include crash damage.

I am not getting on about the participants in this or the Challenge series. I think they are a great bunch of guys. I just feel that Ferrari really doesn't care about anything but how much money they can get out of each client. Period!

Speaking of Challenge series'. Remember, the Challenge Rally series? Another way to fleese the customer under the guise of competition. I know of a driver and son who won an event by so much it was rediculous. However, he really didn't 'fit' the look of what they wanted. They concockted a penalty and a more 'appropriate' customer was declared the winner. That is pretty pathetic.

My hats off to anyone who actually drives their cars at speed, as they were intended to. I may be cynical (I am from NY afterall), but if it looks like a rat, and smells like a rat, guess what....................

 

Dino,

You obviously know far more about the Challenge, its history, the drivers, racing, and FNA's motives than I do.

Doesn't leave much to discuss, does it?

O.G.

 

Thanks for the response, Oldy, but a Goldy guy. (Actually you're not that old, at least not by my eyes.)

A few comments: The first is that I saw the Challenge cars race at Montreal a couple of years ago. In many ways, it was more fun to watch than the big race. F1 races, with pit stops, are much more complicated to follow than a straight, "beat ya to the finish line" sprint. (It might of helped if I had understood whatever that french speaking guy was screaming into the pa system.) It didn't hurt that this was one of Steve Earle's last races.

The second is that, based on what others have told me, racing a Ferrari is a SCCA or NASA race can be a bit dicey. Playing chicken against some guy in a $25k bondo special can ruin your day when just a minor get off could set you back at least $25K. The Ferrari Challenge is expensive, but at least you're running against guys who have as much to lose as you do.

Finally, can you give us some hope that Ferrari might throw a bone to those few poor boys (and a few gals) who want to race the older Challenge cars? I'm throwing in the towel on driving fast cars on the street. Too expensive and too dangerous. While Spec Miata is my first choice, it would be fun to tool around in an older Challenge cars. I gotta admit that it is really cool to hear those flat crank Ferraris versus the Japanese fart cans or American V8s.

Dale

 

Doc Who? There are weeks I really do feel my age, and this has been one of them.

The honest answer is that no, it's very unlikely that there will ever be a Ferrari-organized series for the 348 and 355 Challenge cars. It's been looked at almost every year, and there are lots of reasons it won't work. A major one is a lack of time: with the 360/430 Challenge, Shell Historics, customer track sessions (included now at almost every event) there normally isn't time to add another series. There are financial issues, preparation issues, etc. as well.

I'd love to say yes, but it just isn't likely. The new historic group plans to run these cars in a Porsche vs. Ferrari series. I talked to them briefly, as I've known Tim Pendergast since he was still in diapers, and I wish them well. If they succeed they'll provide a venue for these cars.

O.G.

 

OG:

I really don't appreciate your condescending attitude. I don't know who you are, and frankly don't care. I'm glad that you have been hanging around the Challenge series for 10+ years. To each his own. The same goes for the drivers of the series...past and present. If that's the way you want to spend money, God bless you. But there are arguably alot of better and less costly series that are available, with better cars, exposure, etc.

This nonsence started from an 'opinion' I have about the Challenge series, and now the Super Challenge with that silly FXX. It is just an opinion....with some basis and knowledge.

I have many friends in Maranello. Some of which have told me how the whole thing got started. If you remember back in the early 90s, Ferrari couldn't give 348s away, nor could they win races or championships.

The business plan for the Challenge series was first and foremost to move cars. Second was to get some press and positive PR and third was have a public showing of a race series that would guarantee a Ferrari winner. All designed to move cars! The fact that it turned into what it has is a huge plus....and a great money maker for the service departments and body shops.

I would love to run a Challenge car, but the quality of the drivers is such that the odds on becoming a casualty are far too great for me. Additionally, I feel that (for me), the cost/benefit ratio is way off. I think (again...for ME) running a Formula Mazda or a Radical in C/D Sports racer would be a much better drive.

Finally, try not to take yourself, this series or life for that matter to seriously. We are all here for a short period. Just let's have fun.....and of course Drive Hard!

Ciao...........Dino

 

My bad for not being clear. The kind of support that may make sense for Ferrari is logistical, i.e., getting a break on parts, tires, and tech help. I think that Rob Lay has talked NASA into having a Ferrari only series. The best guess is that there may be 3 dozen "retired" Challenge cars in Texas alone. There will probably be more once the 360 Challenge ends (next year right?)

I'd like to think that giving some limited support to a club series like this would be beneficial for Ferrari because (1) it keeps the flag flying (watching Rob and Mark run at a NASA was very cool), (2) it shouldn't cost that much, and (3) the day may come when Ferrari starts making more and more track only cars (getting caught going over 100 mph on public roads is getting more and more dicey every day).

Besides, you wouldn't want me to sic Mandy on you, would you?

Dale

 

This first part of this is what Ferrari Challange is about!!!

you say you raced with Dr. Earl, that is enough of a driver to answer your question ?? how about Hank Sr, and Jr, Paul Frame , ... I think you answered your own question.



-a


edit:

Ok now I read everypost and wanted to add a few things:

Back in the day, we took a few 348 challenge cars, and had a class created in SCCA (ITF) and granted, there were 3 or 4 of us, so depending on who showed up, you pretty much always won ...

I myself found the Challenge series to be changing in front of my eyes, not for better, and not for worse, just changing.

In the begining it was all about Owner - Drivers, period. as we all know this changed a bit.

-a

 

Dale,

Give me a call. I'll be here over the weekend and next week. I have an idea, but it will take a proposal from someone (you? Rob?) that I can take forward. There will have to be some sort of revenue involved. And unfortunately your threat would work: Mandy is the one person who has the right officially to nag me. And she does, quite well.

Aaron: You're right. Any series changes over its lifespan, and the Ferrari Challenge has certainly proved that correct. It is now getting back to more of the spirit of the 1994 season, but nothing will recapture what was. Rick Mancuso and I were recently telling some people about how it was back then, and telling one story just made us remember another. Thems was fun times. It'll never be the same, but then Ferrari owners as a group have changed as well.

And Dino, please don't worry about me taking thing too seriously. I suspect I'm enjoying this whole thing far more than you know.

O.G.

 

Sorry to hijack, but I am looking for some insight from this group about concerns I have had about running a car in the Historic Challenge. We have discussed to death over in Vintage the philosophical differences between the way the europeans tend to race vintage cars versus the north american approach. No matter your thoughts on the issue, I think I can safely say that fewer cars are crashed in the US vintage events (the debacle at Road America this summer excluded).

As we near completion of our 500 Mondial, I would like to run the car in the Historics, but don't know anything about general driver attitudes - I would hope that guys aren't out there just to get a trophy. I have no intention of being a mere rolling chicane, but on the other hand, my sole purpose for being out there is to get the sounds, smells and general experience of stretching the old girl's legs on a track - there is no way that I would take the car to its limits; it already had its stress tests back when it mattered in the mid 1950s. And beware; I will be one of those drivers that barely has more than "four day's of driving school" experience.

A lot of my fears were assuaged when I had a nice chat w/ Mike Sheehan @ Monterey last month. His basic message was "for God's sake, run the car and have fun" (although he strongly believes we should re-install the roll bar that Dad put on in the 60s.) But he's ths only Historic challenge driver I have ever talked to about the subject.

thoughts?

 

Bryan,

You may want to discuss this with me in some detail, or with any driver who has ever participated in the Shell Historics in North America. In the eight years the series has been run there have been two instances of car-to-car contact. The first was avoidable, and resulted in one driver leaving the series. The second was this year, and was the result of a combination of circumstances; no one was driving dangerously or over his head. The level of competition is quite different from Europe, by design, and is pretty carefully controlled by the series management.

There is a very active four-cylinder class, by the way, with a 500 TR, 500 TRC, 625 LM, and three Maserati 200 SIs competing at one time or another last year.

O.G.

 

Sort of off topic, but I sure wish FCA would promote track events run under vintage rules with harsh punishment for contact and reckless drivers. The Shelby American Automobile Club and their regional chapters had an awesome, safe, fun program; Nor-Cal SAAC in particular. No trophies, no awards, but first class safety services, multiple run groups for different skills and great camaraderie. If a FCA program like this existed, I’d scoop-up a retired challenge car immediately. In the southwest, I’m currently sniffing around NASA, ProAutosports, etc. but it’s not clear that they have what I’m looking for either…..

 

Hey Old Guy, Jeez just how old are you anyway? Lol, couldn't resist pokin' some fun at you. I was at a Ducati dealer the other day oogling a 749S and was thinking that I shouldn't be doin' that because I'm told old to be ridin' this thing.... then I came to my senses and bought it. My son and I took turns riding it home to Montana, great fun.
Anyway sorry for the tangent. My question for you is related to the history of the 348/355 Challenge cars. Since you have been around these cars I thought you would be a good source. I have been wanting to do a registry or some sort gathering of info from people that have first hand knowledge. Verses the my brothers cousins sisters dog saw one race once story. I own #88/49, '97 355C. I have fairly complete docs on my car but, no real stories about it. I think the individual stories of these cars would an interesting read. Now would be the time to compile the info before everyone forgets. Regards, Vern