are ferraris days numbered?

Allan,

That is exactly why Ferrari, Lamborghini, Lotus, even Ford now (GT) are tryign to sell cars on heritage and story. When your everyday S55 will run with a Murcie (I'm not saying it's faster, but it's fast to say the least), you have to differentiate on more than performance.

--Dan

PS: Meant to add; this is exactly why I've been moving towards lighter cars that are more visceral and involving, because in the end, I couldn't care less about whether it does 0-60 in 2s or 10, the real question is one of FEEL. If I'm having more fun doing it in 10s than I do ni a luxobarge at 2, then that's all that counts.

 

I'm gonna have to agree with Ryan Z. I'm part of that "Fast and the Furious" generation but one thing that I notice is that all of "us" try to build cars that compare with Ferraris. Sure we can build a car that runs faster in a straight line, but the thing is, they don't stand out. Go to a parking lot and you'll see 15, 20, 30 Civics. Maybe half of them modified, but they're still all Civics. They put stuff on there to be unique and get attention. All you need is a single Ferrari, no matter what year, and it'll get more attention then all of those Civics combined. If they had the money they'd buy a Ferrari. I mean where else do you see guys putting together cars like the "Lamarossa" and the others like it?

I seriously doubt Ferraris days are numbered. But I'm speaking from a different generation. I can understand why owners now feel that Ferrari has gone away from their strengths like the F40 and 512TR. But they're catering towards a different generation now. I like the styling of both the 355 and 360. I think the Enzo is different, and accomplishes the role of a super exotic car. When I'm old enough and ready for a Ferrari I'm sure they'll have something that fits my tastes. If not, I'll just buy a Lambo

 

"I want to see 700hp Fcars and Lcars running around, smoking everything."

My sentiments exactly! When I see owners rationalizing why their cars can't do this or that then it's time for a reality check. Ferrari certainly charges enough for their cars to where its owners should never ever have to make excuses.

 

No they dont market to 20 year olds with Civics, but when the time comes and that kid can afford a Ferrari, steps out of his Civic and into a Ferrari, he is dissapointed by the lack of performance.

Heritage and Prestige dont make a car fun to drive, performance does.

 

Exactly! They are a totally different creature! Ferraris are not about straight line performance. F1 racing is not about quarter mile times. F cars do exactly what they are derived from. I am not saying who is right or wrong. Everyone has their own judgement and preferences.
I mean, I would love for Fcars to have the sub 10 second cars and so forth, but those cars, it would be hard to live with in everyday driving conditions. Nontheless, those cars(10 second Civics etc) are usually not street legal vehicles to begin with(and they idle very ruffly). Basically what it comes down to is, it's all how you look at things and its all personal preference. I think Ferraris offer a great driving experience and also a lifestyle to some. Not to mention, no other car can make that trademarked sound of a Ferrari!=)
Oh and I forgot to mention, we have the Enzo for our supercar performances and not many can compete with those and they are street legal!^_~

 

But I have a feeling by then, technology will have evolved as it is evolving each and everyday and the cars will be much better to suit their tastes.

 

This F1 stuff is really rediculous. These cars share nothing in common with F1. Chevy builds race trucks that win races, and yet their street cars can tear up a 180,000 Ferrari.

 

Oh yes, those new 3800 pd 550/575/612/456 are real lightweights!

Let me ask you a serious question, whatt do you think the weight of my SV is?

 

Allan, answer the question: Why is it that people are waiting in line to buy a 400 HP Ferrari and they are discounting 495 HP Mercedes Benz (CL, SL, and S class), 500 HP Dodge Vipers and other higher HP cars? I can even go down to my Suburu dealer and buy a car for $30K which in sheer numbers is pretty impressive. People are not waiting in line to buy it. Why? Have you ever heard the phrase, the perception is the reality? Ferrari is about more than mere performance numbers. It's about perception. It's about something you cannot measure in zero to 60 times. Always has been, always will be. Kids in the 60's and 70's like me were hopping up Camaros and Mustangs and those same kids, like me, started buying Ferraris as soon as we could finally afford them. I used to sneer at Ferraris too. But I'll tell you what, I secretly admitted to myself I wanted one of those red cars real bad. It's still the same today. It will still be the same tomorrow. Those kids you say are bashing Ferraris, they will be waiting in line with the rest of us some day. Ferrari is magic!

 

Ferrari DOES have a 'balls-out' mid engined, wild looking car. It's called a Maserati MC12/MCC/MCS

 

I agree with Allen with some of his statements. Ferrari is not living up to it's reputation of having fast and superior performing cars. Cars like the 612 are prooving that. The new 420 already looks like a disapointment compaired to the closest competitor. Ferrari using a maserati engine? What the hell is that? Why would they do such a thing? Yes I know it was a Ferrari design from the start but it was bulit to be used in the Maser. Why would you want to put a low line engine in the top line car? To me this is a complete joke. Yes the new engine uses timing chains but so what.


Ferrari has alot of work ahead of it, if it wants to be the car manufacuter it once was. They used to have cars like the TR, 328, F40, 288GTO, BB512 etc real peformance cars that would pretty much dust anything on the road at the time.

But you have technology out there that has allowed cars to be built for less money but perform the same. Is it possiable the the auto industry has reached a performance plateau that can't really get much better? Maybe this is reason why cars are very much same performance wise lately.

Tom

 

One thats affordable.

 

Why, 1st, only the 360 is desirable. 2nd, Ferrari manipulates the market along with dealers. If the 360 is That great of a car, if its That great a driving experience, why since its introduction have there always been 100's for sale at any given time. Its like a stock, hold it, make money, make money.... new one comes out...lose your ass. In the end, same depreciation, or worse as any other exotic.

 

Alan I agree with everything you have said here. It is very easy to find a second hand F360, but it is just as easy to find any second hand car of this type.

Why is that?

Because many non-car lovers buy these cars for either image or profit making, and thus realise that a car like this is not really them OR sell soon to make a few bucks (if they are lucky).

Real car people will put up with many of the quirks and keep the cars, but smart ones will buy the second hand 1 year old car that is a lot cheaper!

In the end Ferraris and Lambos are bought on a fulfilment (sp?) of a dream and have stuff all to do with performance figures. People that worry about real performance buy PORSCHES ... and I am serious with that comment. What car do you see dominating grids at just about ever race track in the world ... Porsches.

Thus I do not agree with your earlier comments that Ferrari is in trouble because its cars are not the fastest, etc. and also your comments regarding F1 not been relevant. Well I can tell you that my children are sitting at home and ocassionally watch a little F1, and they are definitely forming the opinion of Ferrari as some sort of racing legend. This will help build that dream ...

In the end buying one of these cars is a little like knocking up a super model (I imagine)... the dream before hand is far better than the reality. When reality hits you realise that Ferrari and Lambos are just cars, they do some things well and some things not so well, and that super model you dreamed about is just another girl, with the same if not more hang ups ... and does some things well and some things not as well as your last girl friend .

If you are buying any vehicle based on performance figures (unless you have bought for a race series) then you are a fool, because nobody else gives a dam, and on the road it does NOT matter ... and very soon another car will top it.

Pete

 

My guess is your SV weighs about 3500lbs? ~1600 kilos on lamborghiniregistry.com, I love Diablos but my brother thinks their bohemoths and would die for a TVR. Both superb cars in my book though!

I could have spent the money from my MGB on modding my boring Escort... but I'd still have an Escort! I agree 100% with those stating that there is much more to owning/driving a car then its outright performance.

Yes, going fast is fun but when you go to car meets (sorry, I missed the KC one last Sat.) its nice to do something more then argue over performance numbers.

I don't think Ferrari is in any danger anytime soon. As someone earlier stated with a three year waiting list, other products from computers to... toilet bowl cleaners?!, and charismatic (sound, feel, history) cars that sheer performance can only dream of having, I believe that Ferrari will still be around looong after I'm gone.

 

Have you ever taken a basic course in economics? So, your conclusion is there is some vast conspiracy among Ferrari dealers? LOL. Wow! You're kidding right? Put the crack pipe down and get yourself admitted into a good rehab program.

 

{response contains vulgar action, and I apologize in advance, so please read with caution}

Hi Allan,

I have read your posts and have known of you for quite a while through Prime. I have nothing but respect for you and do think you bring a great deal of good opinions to this board and to the many other boards you are a member of. Like you I am active on about 11-12 boards, from cheap Honda to Suzuki to Ferrari to Porsche. Even though it is a Ferrari board, none other parallels my love for the L and F cars. I never get in whether the F car or L car is better; in my eyes they are different. I would like to own both. To me a Diablo (countach of my generation) left an imprint of pure brutality and power and did it with flair. It is a car that reminds me of having sex with a woman standing up against the wall and leaving bruises on her when I am done. Whereas the Ferrari is to the contrary. It is a woman with seductive curves that can level me with her eyes. It is a woman that you make love to all night on a satin sheet over looking the ocean. To me they are different things enjoyed at different moments depending on what kind of mood you are in.

As far as today's kids, lets not forget I am one of them I am not that old. Being 21 still allows me to "roam" among the younger generation. I don't doubt today's kids are about #s, but like someone else mentioned kids are ALWAYS about numbers. Even today I could quote you 1/4 mile times from road and track and car and driver and numerous other magazines. We know a light Elise with Toyotas 195 horsepower can lay down sizzling numbers, but will any of my generation take that over a 911 or a M3? Heck no. As much as this generation is about numbers, this generation is MORE about status and status symbols. This generation is the utter example of materialistic greed. Our generation has seen no real war (kids growing up after Gulf War), and has not seen poverty. We have grown up in the dot com boom, and have seen 21 year old millionaires. We grew up in times of Bill Gates, Steve Allen, and try to emulate Rap moguls like Sean Combs, and Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban.

We watch MTV and cribs. We dream when we can have 11 cars, and ceilings made of gold like Master P, and get gifts for our moms from J the jeweler (or whatever his name is). Forgive me, as I don't have a TV, and am trying to recall from memory. This generation has grown up on $150 Nike's and 100M dollar baseball and basketball contracts. We don't know what hardship is.

My fastest car I have owned is an 11 second crx. My sc300 turbo is still being worked out and not as fast. Can I keep up with Ferraris? Yes. Would I trade everything for a "lowly" (as magazines call it) 348? Hell ya! Numbers mean a lot to us because we can't afford better. Ask all the Sti guys who have 400 Hp if they will trade their cars for 911 turbos, diablos, and f355s? You will hear a resounding yes.

Forget the 360. Our generation will sell their soul to the devil for a 348, or a Diablo. We are a generation with no morals or values, and will stab our siblings to gain material possession.

Yes you may have seen how some of us (the dumb ones) feel ferrari/lambo is overpriced and under performing, but trust me when they hit the 21-25 range and start looking at real life, and stop bench racing, they too realize what comes with Ferrari ownership, and Lambo ownership. They realize the prestige, the pedigree, and the thumbs up they will get from their friends. My generation is all about impressing people at all cost. They are wearing Patek Phillipe and Armani suits, and posing with the best of them, when they have no money in their checking account. It is the ultimate poser generation. History might mean nothing to them, like you say but wait till they are 25. At 16 Ferrari history might be nothing, but at 25, when they discover the power of women when you say the words "yes I own a Ferrari" vs "Yes I drive a Honda" they too will be convinced.

I feel you are judging my generation with the 16 and 17 year olds on the board, and not by looking at the progression of the older folks in the same generation. All my friends that had turbo Hondas and Mitsubishis all drive M3s now. At one time all these guys used to hate BMW's and everything it stood for. After the M3's they will graduate to the 911. (If you want names, I will give you names of members on 6 speed and bimmerforums). Then they will get tired of the 911, and want true exotic, whether it is Ferrari/Lambo/Aston Martin. That is the true progression of my generation, whether you believe it or not. Sure we love the Skylines and the Supras, at the end of the day we will take a “measly” 400 HP Ferrari over a 700 Supra. It is easier to like the Supra at 17 when speed is all that matters. But once you get a real job and see no one respects that and the tremendous admiration you will get once you buy a Ferrari, you buy a F car, and you start modding that.

Our generation will see the HRE rims on the Ferrari, the slammed suspensions. Maybe sad to some, good to others, but that’s what these kids will bring.

I want to end by saying we would all love to see 700HP L/F cars, and I don’t have much doubt we will by the time our generation has the buying power, but let me assure you we are not all about numbers. We are about zip codes, watch labels, clothing labels, breast size, car labels, rims brands, exhaust brands, and so forth. To us that matters most.

*Not speaking on personal behalf, because as you can see I am not a baller like my M3 and M5 friends with 15K credit card debts and such. Just giving a voice to my generation*

 

no

 

And miura?

 

With your usual BS ?
Probably a lot.

 

Well said Ryan. I agree. Ferrari isn't going anywhere.

 

Originally Posted by Willis360
"Didn't we hear the same thing when the NSX came out?"


[QUOTE And miura? [/QUOTE]



Yes but it was always one car at a time coming after Ferrari. And they held off the Miura and then the NSX. It will be more fun to watch this time with the Ford GT and the Baby Lambo both going for the 360/420 and so many cars going after the 550/575 I don't want to list them all.

As the poster on the wall at the gym says- "What doesn't kill you, only makes you stronger".

Lets see how Ferrari answers back. This entire thread started because we saw the sketch of the 420 at 480hp and its not good enough. And we don't even want to think what it will be like when it finally hits the market, because by then, the Gallardo and Ford GT will have already bumped up another 50hp

 

Okay, with today's kids being interested in the performance numbers of these cars, has anyone noticed that the average new Ferrari buyer is in his late 50's/early 60's? Hate to say it, but most of us under 50 just aren't in the target market. Yes, yes, there are some people with new ones under 30, but those are the exception to the rule.

The 612 will sell, not in huge numbers, but in nice numbers to justify the project. Dealer's allocations are based on V12 sales, not V8 sales, so there is motivation for them to put people in them. I've heard that V12 2+2 sales count more than 575M sales in allocations.

Ferrari probably makes more money selling T shirts to the numbers crowd than they do selling the actual cars.