Are Italian cars really that bad ?

I wouldn't say Italian cars are that bad; I'd rather say German cars are better engineered.

But in my book German cars lack sex appeal. I have driven Porsches, Mercs, Audis and BMWs and couldn't care less about any of them.

 

Most cars with "superior" engineering (most Germans, some Japanese) seem to lack soul. Why buy a classic Vette, or MG, Caddy with big ol' wings, 308, etc.... Not for a "bullet proof" daily driver. Cause it makes you feel good, scratches that itch, etc.

 

How does the saying go?

In heaven, the engineers are German, the women are Italian, the cooks are French, or something like that.

But in hell...

 

Incredible attention to detail. Just look/sit/drive a German car and you'll see what we mean.

A friend of mine has a M3. Nice car and all its high tech wizardry (F1 paddle shift) works like clock work, well at least after some factory updates. Anyway, it has a built in container for the garage door opener. It also has an interface for MP3 music. Etc etc. Things that don't make them win the Mille Miglia, but that proove how much engineering thought went into the product. Similar comments can be made on how well the whole thing is put together.

 

I guess it is all relative and your original question is pretty broad to begin with. So any answer can always fall short under scruteny.

Before I had the 308 I owned a VR6. It was pretty fast, easy maintenance and well put together. But it handled like a truck and was a big letdown compared to the Golf GTi I once had (which admittedly had a racing suspension). So not all German cars are gold, no question.

 

I've owned my now 25 year old 308 for almost 5 years now,with Zero Problems.

I think that the only ones that really complain are the ones that dont want to have to put money into them. They buy an Exotic Car-closest thing to a Real Racing Car for the Street. But,expect the cost of ownership to be like a Chevy....or a Camry. When something breaks,or Maintenance time comes.They think they have a Chevy,and ask "Why does it cost so much to Fix???". Then,they decide not to have the Maintenance done,and Voila! Another POS Car in the World.

Then,somebody buys it cheap. Thinking they got a great deal. But,when somethings breaks..............and on,and on,and on.................

 

I will offer a dissenting opinion. (or rant if you prefer)

I do not agree, that any one country or marque, produces the cars with the absolute best engineering.

Race cars are of course omitted from the following list of rants.

Mercedes' president was fired a number of years back. The reason was horsesh*t quality. It was a regular occurance for the new cars at the time to spend 70% of the year in the shop. In present terms, they have used small plastic tubes and fittings to carry oil to the camshafts, there have been numerous failures that involve major engine repairs. Quality engineering?

For many years the safest oriental car carried with it a greater than 70% chance of the occupants dying in a 30mph accident. By actual on-road accident stats! Quality engineering?

The 50's to 70's P-cars, had the front suspension secured to the "chassis" or floorpan (19 - 20 gauge sheet metal, IIRC) bolted to threaded inserts that were riveted into the sheet. I have seen so many of those cars with the suspension actually falling off, I couldn't begin to count them. There aren't many that haven't had their floorpans replaced, how many were done correctly? Quality engineering?

BMW's IMO, have turned into the German expression of oriental engineering.

Cup holders, GPS's, automatic boot-polishers and other doo-dads are not really what I consider the entry qualifications for best engineering category.

IMO, it depends what you are looking to find. If you want a fast grocery getter or crumb-snatcher hauler, there are a myriad of options that include all of the "doo-dads".

The available options if you want a great car, are a much smaller group.

What makes a car good or bad, is a very subjective idea. If you are talking about the bulletproof reliability of cars that are 10 to 50 years old, that does not depend so heavily on the manufacturer as it does the person that drives it and the person that maintains it. If you are talking about new cars, and you want an edgey top performing car, you can expect it to spend some time in the shop. One, because it is on the leading front of performance, two, because of the way it is going to be used.

Many of the Ferraris that are discussed on the forum, are being discussed because the owner is having an issue, if you are not having a problem, you have less reasons to discuss it. Many of these cars also do not see a lot of miles per year, which can also lead to the need for a bit of extra attention.

I don't think that anyone (I may be wrong, I have been many times before)is saying that Italian cars are bad.... it's as I said before, on the edge or possibly just misunderstood.

Now if you want to discuss wiring..... well let's just say that the Italians might have had a different sort of approach to electricity in the past and leave it at that. How's that for diplomacy?

Bill

<FLAME SUIT ON>

 

Right On! Bill.... You said it! Actually,IMHO,I don't get where Anybody says,or even thinks that ANY Car is Perfect. They arent. They are Machines! Built by Humans. Both being vulnerable to mistakes. First. Factor in EACH and EVERY single Part in a Car. These are made by all different vendors all over the place. You could have a disgruntled,or inexperienced worker making $5.00/HR,making a/some faulty parts. They get shipped to the Auto Manufacturer,and get put on the Car. Quality control? HAHAHAHAHA!!!! And,In this Day and Age,if one part fails,Many other parts then fail. Then,costing much more.

Second,same thing at the Factory. You might get a Pissed Off Worker who didn't get a raise. Doing a Crappy Job. Or Hung over from Drinking too much. Lazy. Whatever.

The Automobile is only as good as the sum of it's Parts. And,of the quality in workmanship. IMO,these are constant variables.

 

My parents have 3 Mercedes, an 84, 86, and 92, with a combined mileage of >320K miles (the 84 is an SL, with ONLY 60K). Rock solid. The multiple Buicks we had while I was growing up (ah the memories, the Buick Electra Estate wagon with wood paneling.... had 4 of them!) NEVER made it past 80-90K, even before my brother and I got to them! The Mercedes, however, did and do not seem to have the same problems (yes, I abused them!). The Buicks retained absolutely NO value, because they were considered time bombs.

Today, "German" cars (many are made in Hungary) still feel quite solid. Possibly boring, depending on the model. Does that Taurus or Malibu feel like that? How about that Chrysler product? (I have a Grand Caravan, its OK, but the wife loves it). Man, I rented a Jeep Liberty 2 weeks ago while in Colorado... what a POS!
Todays techno German cars, IMO, will not retain the same level of value they previously had. All that techy stuff will break, and will cost you dearly.

 

I agree completely with the fear of the tech stuff breaking and/or failing. I used to own a BMW 8 series which meant it was a $2,000 surprise for every oil change. Being my first GT/Sportscar purchase I swallowed my pride and still paid over a course of one too many years. On the flip side I had the older S series class, ( the tanks, ) for my first serious car purchase. Unbelievable, almost bulletproof and easy to drive in any condition. Despite its bulky appearance, interior and presence always made it feel more special than a big Caddie or Lincoln and much more whoa in terms of performance than a Jag or Roller. My father has a collection of the new Benz and with his faulty health and a bunch of Father and Son outings I have driven them all. Compared to my mid 90s Benz they leave them in the dust in terms of power, looks, fun gadgets, everything! I still think the E55 is the ultimate sleeper car on the roads today. But with the massaging seats, voice activated levers, adjustable height, keyless entry, I fear, just like my 8 series BMW, that it all might fall apart. Well the parents new S series, one of the first out, is as good today as it was in the past and there has never been one significant techno matter despite it being 5 years old now.

As a single and money burning young man I was almost scared to drive the Ferrari unless it was to pick up my future wife for a trip to a 5 minutes down the road restaurant or out to my buddies ranch. Garage queen Maranello, yeah so what? I was happy that being so young and without any other obligations I could buy a car I shouldn't and just spend weekends getting the dust out of the AC vents in the apartment's garage with some toothpick looking brush. I was more happy with that than driving it up and down the construction laden road and thinking to myself, " how well is the suspension going to hold out? " especially after I had a strut bolt snap one time. Would I think this if I had to the keys to my father's AMG's, never! Flying down the road at 45 mph in a AMG would be a breeze compared to nosing and swerving around every edge of junk road in the Maranello at 15 mph. When I had a Ferrari it went to the country side or McyD's in case I just wanted to burn some gas. Most of the time it sat in its special apartment garage space and I would come down to check it out and smile where my Durango and H2 froze or melted outside.

I think the best comparison of a german car to a italian sportscar is like comparing beautiful and talented women. The Ferrari is just pure sex, a supermodel that never tires in looks, always knocks you on your ass and makes you grip on, but costs so much to maintain and breaks down for no reason. A Merc or Benz is seriously Mary Ann: can make a coconut radio, always looks cute, never does anything out of the ordinary, but can look plain and somewhat bulky next to an exotic and with constant contact you find yourself a little bored with despite the daily success.

There are huge problems with Ferraris, and from my experience almost none with the German alternatives. But I don't dream of SL65s and M6s. If I had a choice, I'd go with the 575 GTC. Realistically, in a few years time a AMV8 would be fun, ( Aston, the English pain in the ***.) Common sense will find me in Benz again. But my garage and office will still have the Ferrari posters and model cars.

RocketBoy

PS: Im one of the lucky ones, I didn't marry Mary Ann so I guess a supercar would just be an accessory like a purse or watch.

 

FWIW, I know someone who just had his SL65 replaced under the lemon law, and another guy who just bought one with 2000 miles on it that has spent most of the last month in the shop for problems with the turbos. And I'm not sure how anyone can equate BMWs with durable build quality, unless engine replacements at 25K miles are the norm (think of the '95 V8 engines.)

I had a '98 Lamborghini Diablo and a '98 Lexus GS400. And I drove the Lambo, 8K miles in 11 months. The Lexus had more problems (a fluke, perhaps, but true) and spent more time in the shop.

 

The only problem that I see in your post, is that you are comparing cars of widely differing price ranges. You can afford to dump the lower priced cars a lot sooner than the beemers and mercedes.

The Liberty, BTW is a pretty low priced vehicle and a rental.

I have owned a number Caravans, for hauling dogs, bikes and business stuff, since '85, the highest mileage I have gotten on them is up to 315K miles (the '85, 4 cyl and I still have it) the lowest was 168K miles, it was totalled in April. I am not saying that it is the best vehicle on the road, but I have to say that after broadsiding an ignoramus at 50, I am still here, with relatively minor injuries. I will give you a Caravan tip, put low profile wider tires on it, it's amazing the difference it makes in handling (it's almost fun to drive) particularly on the short chassis version.

Bill

 

How you doin' Rocket,
Look at the resale on 7 and 8 series, it is sh*t, the reason is the techno stuff. Those cars, IIRC, have 7 or 8 brain units in each car, the cost thousands apiece, if you can get them.

For the money of an S class you could have one or both of the R series Jag's, they will have a lot more grunt than all but the most expensive Merc's.

I have taken my 365 on numerous long trips, with just about as much worry as the Caravan, never had a problem. My '66 MGBGT I have taken on trips up to 7500 miles in a month, on that trip in '80, the original '66 voltage regulator's points got stuck, in the Virgin River Canyon, and it threw the solder off of the commutator, $16 repair in Vegas. I still have the MG, it's the first car I ever bought, 310K miles on it. In My Jensens, I took trips up to 3000 miles.

Regards,
Bill

 

Yes,I put 170K on the little '86 Porsche that I had. And it was like a new Car all around. Several Chevys with 160K plus. With No smoke. Nothing. So,it depends on the care of the owner,.too. BUT...those were older Cars. Now a days,some oblivious looking little plastic Part...Computerized?... could cost Hundreds or Thousands to replace

I have also heard from quite a few different mechanics, (Not just Ferrari Mechanics,BTW) That Ferrari makes the Best Engines in the World. So,I have to agree. "Right On" to Dr. Tommy for having 90K on his! I suppose that if a Chevy,Porsche,or Toyota can easily put on 300K. A Ferrari should certainly be able to. Ofcourse,like with Any Car,as long as it is Serviced and Maintained properly.

 

My 82 Alfa Spider never breaks. It actually has been the only car I could start and get to work in in the winter a few years back.

 

Check out the Thread here about "SouthWesten Wisconsin Drive" that we did this past Sunday. Some nice,old Alfa's that are as dependable as they get...

 

Do you expect more money = better quality?
This is many peoples gripes these days, that the subjective "Quality" may have eroded, especially with all the techno stuff, on more expensive cars.
Plus, you buy a new Jag, drive it off the lot and watch $10K go right out the window. Maybe not quite so bad with MB/BMW/Audi.
I don't think you should necessarily expect "low" quality if you spend $20K on a new car.

 

Well, HELL YES! Like most people, I DO expect that the car that I just paid 80K+ for, would be of a better quality, than the 20K car that I just bought for the daughter to take to school. But you were speaking to the longevity of the cars...

...and that is what I responded to.

Agreed, and the more stupid a*s doo dads you have, the more stupid a*s doo-dads to f*ck up. Add those to any "real" problems that you may encounter, and you don't see your new car very much.

Pretty much the same for mercedes, bmw, audi, porsche, lambo, ferrari, etc. and any other new car priced over $60K range.

I am not saying that anyone should expect low quality, but if you expect a new $20K car to go 100-150K miles or be worth much when you are done with it, you will be, more often than not, sorely disappointed.

There was a time, when you could buy a Dodge Dart, with a slant 6, that you pretty well expect every one of them to last 150 to 200K miles, with reasonable care, get 30MPG on the highway, 15 to 20MPG around town and rarely burn a quart of oil within 5000 miles. No, not luxurious, truly spartan in amenities, but great, reliable, safe transportation and CHEAP!

Now, even the expensive production cars are somehow cheapened (mercedes' plastic oil feed lines), the corporate bean-counters have made sure of that. Squeeze every cent you can get, out of everthing you do. Make the product last only as long as it has to, to not be laughed off of the market by the all knowing masses.

Bill

 

Marconi was Italian

 

That may be true, but have you ever seen the wiring on a Miura?

Bill

 

He was dead by then

 

I have a friend in sales who lives in Poplar Grove (Rockford) and works in Burr Ridge. His last vehicle, a Buick Regal, went over 300K miles before he replaced it. The key is maintenance. No car, a 20K Honda or an 80K German WILL NOT LAST IF THE WIFE DOSN'T CHANGE THE OIL!