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Are we in for a long Ferrari F1 drought?

Discussion in 'F1' started by TheMayor, Aug 3, 2019.

  1. william

    william F1 World Champ

    Jun 3, 2006
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    William Denoyelles
    The game changer will be in the new Financial rules, I guess.
    I expect that the $175M budget cap will hamper the operations for the well funded 3 top teams.
    For one thing, they will have to reduce their staff level.
    I was quite surprised in fact that they accepted it.
    Let's be fair, a big budget was their main advantage compared to "the rest", and they give it away !!!
     
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  2. TonyL

    TonyL Formula 3

    Sep 27, 2007
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    4. Reporting and Benchmarking
    4.1
    Each competitor shall report to the FIA details of its RWTT (restricted wind tunnel testing) and RCFDs (restricted computational fluid dynamics)for the preceding ATP (Aero Testing Period)
    within 14 days of the end of that ATP. The data must be provided in the exact format specified
    by the FIA, details of which may be found in the Appendix to the F1 Sporting Regulations.
    4.2 Digital wind tunnel image files in colour and with sufficient unobstructed field of view of the
    wind tunnel working section to include the entire model must be recorded, referenced to
    other data collected and a copy saved including a unique time stamp to at least one second
    accuracy for the start of each individual run.
    Should the FIA wish to access the images for inspection at any time they must be of adequate
    quality such that it is possible to use them to verify, for example, whether the front wing group
    (described in Article 3.3.1 of the F1 Technical Regulations) and rear wing group (described in
    Article 3.6.3 of the F1 Technical Regulations) are fitted. In the case of other runs deemed to be
    non‐RCFDs in the context of this Appendix, for example using an aerodynamic configuration
    greater than 12 months old, the images must also provide a clear visual reference to assist in
    verifying this aspect of the model.
    4.3 In order to check on the hardware employed by the competitors and as a means of assuring
    common application of the restrictions set out in this Appendix, the FIA will arrange for
    independent benchmarking inspections of both wind tunnel and CFD activities to be carried
    out from time to time. Recommendations arising from these inspections will be incorporated
    into this Appendix.
    4.4 a) The aerodynamic reporting periods may be found in the Appendix to the F1 Sporting
    Regulations.
    b) If an Aerodynamic Reporting Period occupies more than 8 calendar weeks in order to
    span the factory shutdown, Wind‐on time, TeraFLOPs, occupancy and runs will be
    averaged over this reporting period, or any other period which duration may not be 8
    weeks, by summing the total activity in the period and then averaging over the effective
    duration of the ATP exactly as for a normal reporting period.
    c) For a new entrant, the reporting will start as soon as it officially becomes a competitor.
    The start date of the first reporting period will be defined as the date at which it
    officially becomes a competitor and wind‐on time, TeraFLOPs, occupancy and runs will
    be averaged over the duration of this reporting period


    Very well audited by all accounts.
     
  3. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
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    Bingo...Which is why I keep going back to ''my'' rules re aero/chassis/engine....make it so that the difference between first and last team is tiny and that it's about the best driver, not the best nerds...
     
  4. TonyL

    TonyL Formula 3

    Sep 27, 2007
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    Tony
    We are on the same page, been advocating this for some time myself :)

    The wind tunnel rules are pretty restrictive and if you read the rules of what they can and cannot do is why I think teams are pressing with CFD route. For me this can be a dangerous route - What's the old saying - Feed in horse manure, you get horse manure out, which is probably why their new floor never worked or was worse.

    We used a similar design system in my old business and it sometimes threw out utter garbage, I would not have recognised is was rubbish had I not had a "feel" what I was designing. Perhaps there are to many whiz kids in front on computer screens, with little experience who believe whats in front of them without actually questioning the results. If it happened with my primitive software in comparison to CFD, then I don't see any reason why it cannot happen on their modelling!!
     
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  5. Dhruv George

    Dhruv George Rookie

    Aug 8, 2019
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    Dhruv George
    I've actually been wondering, how long will Kimi remain as Ferrari's last F1 champion?
     
  6. Jeronimo GTO

    Jeronimo GTO Formula 3

    May 15, 2010
    1,579
    Apparently, they can work on full scale models in their wind tunnel:

    https://magazine.ferrari.com/en/living/2017/10/19/news/the_ferrari_wind_tunnel_at_maranello-33717/

    I agree with the rest of your post, Tony.
     
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  7. Dilusha

    Dilusha Formula Junior

    Dec 10, 2016
    615
    I think the extra money on their budget this year was spent on that presentation ceremony for the SF90. What a waste of time and money that was. :p

    Also personally I don't think 'MISSION WINNOW' is a good sponsor. Aesthetically it just doesn't look good on the car. Also the new Matte red is disgusting and #essereFerrari is not a good team motto.

    Basically I think everything's wrong with this year at Ferrari. :p
     
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  8. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
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    This is perhaps the funniest/most depressing part of that article...Where are Ferrari with their heads? It's obvious their choosing concept is not working. It provides poor downforce for the medium/high speed corners. The chassis isn't nearly as good as the Red Bull, let alone Mercedes. So chapeau Ferrari for trying a different concept, it didn't work, it's time to admit defeat. Even if Mercedes retired every race from now on they'd still lose the title to Verstappen. By some margin.

    Ferrari not starting development on next years car early (especially now that RBR/Merc are developing harder throughout the year as they're in a fight) is the equivalent of pissing in the wind....then tomorrow morning wake up and put on their pissed on, still wet trousers....and pissing in the wind, again.

    Ferrari have a great engine (though a tad unreliable). Fantastic. It has a piss poor chassis and even worse aero.

    Ferrari stood a chance at winning Spa and Monza, as things looked early this year...but now I'm quite sure that Ferrari will not win either of those races.
     
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  9. Sig. Roma

    Sig. Roma Formula Junior

    Mar 11, 2007
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    Dom T.
    Hope you are wrong.
     
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  10. TonyL

    TonyL Formula 3

    Sep 27, 2007
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    Not quite sure how they achieve that when it was designed for 50% scale models, in any event the F1 sporting regulations restrict testing up to 60% so teams are limited in their WT testing capabilities. I think it is more to do with "what" they can test when compared with other wind tunnels. Eg the Sauber wind tunnel is far bigger, has more power (3mw against SF 2mW) and can simulate cornering which the Ferrari tunnel is unable to do. I still feel their emphasis is on CFD and their inability to verify the CFD modelling with actual accurate wind tunnel data. Previous cars have excelled in different areas but never quite allowing the team to reign supreme.

    IMHO the outlook is bleak given the current rules, success in the 2000's was simply down to the ability of teams pounding many thousands of miles in on track testing and honing the car to perfection + top engineers who translated wind tunnel, CFD and real time track data.
    Tony
     
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  11. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
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    Agree
     
  12. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    5,692
    The Ferrari wind tunnel can run full scale models if I´m not mistaken, but that doesn´t make any difference as FIA limits aero tests to 60% scale models, if I remember correctly.
     
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  13. E60 M5

    E60 M5 Moderator
    Moderator Owner

    Jan 2, 2006
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    Robert
    To the OP's question, I hope not!!!
    Hopefully management will get the right people and not just the "Italian" people in place and right the ship.
    It can be done, but I fear it will be years............
     
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  14. DF1

    DF1 F1 World Champ
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    Apr 10, 2007
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    BaWü
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  15. DF1

    DF1 F1 World Champ
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    Why does he have a job at all?? LOL

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/145396/ferrari-admits-it-shouldve-focused-on-downforce

    Ferrari admits it should've focused more on downforce Ferrari should have put more of an emphasis on downforce when designing its 2019 Formula 1 car, team boss Mattia Binotto has admitted


    Ferrari should have put more of an emphasis on downforce when designing its 2019 Formula 1 car, team boss Mattia Binotto has admitted.

    The team headed into the season as favourite on the basis of a strong performance in testing, but was powerless to prevent Mercedes racking up eight straight wins and establishing a sizeable points advantage that has been maintained heading into the summer break.

    While Ferrari's SF90 has benefited from superior straightline speed, its downforce deficiency has left the team exposed at circuits with a preponderance of low-speed corners.

    Adding more downforce to the SF90 has long been a priority for Ferrari, and Binotto admitted he would have placed a greater emphasis on it in hindsight, which he also believes would have helped the car work the 2019-spec Pirelli tyres
     
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  16. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
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    We've all seen what can be done with a power deficit but great downforce...Why did Ferrari ever think they could beat physics by going with a low downforce car? Unless they had a 100bhp power advantage (and lets face it, that sort of advantage is impossible), it would never ****ing work....

    what a bunch of idiots.
     
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  17. stavura

    stavura Formula Junior

    Sep 1, 2016
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    Has he only figured that out now?
     
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  18. DF1

    DF1 F1 World Champ
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    Was evident after Aussie GP no???
     
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  19. stavura

    stavura Formula Junior

    Sep 1, 2016
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    LOL apparently not.
     
  20. DF1

    DF1 F1 World Champ
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    LOL :)
     
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  21. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

    Feb 21, 2015
    5,384
    Marko said RBR also built the car with too little down force ,but have managed to rectify it pretty quickly.
     
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  22. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

    Sep 30, 2012
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    Ferrari need a suspensions wizard
     
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  23. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

    Aug 30, 2011
    6,421
    Ferrari needs a miracle...
     
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  24. bmwracer

    bmwracer Formula Junior

    Mar 2, 2004
    463
    Toronto
    Pretty much , they needed a total shakeup a while back but instead did band aid work .
     
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  25. TonyL

    TonyL Formula 3

    Sep 27, 2007
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    Because they have sacked or pissed off pretty much every decent engineer over the past 10 years or more and he is the next one out of the elevator. Binotto will go the same way.
     
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