ATS 2500 GTS

I had a golden opportunity to take pictures of #2008 in Nick Begovichs' warehouse about 1983.
A place choc-a-bloc with rare and beautiful cars;
Aston Martin DB4 GT Zagato
Porche 904 GTS
Some ex Phil Hill Ferrari
many many more
Alas, my photo skills and eqipment were no up to the task.
Oh well...

 

This is Nicholas Begovichs' warehouse in Fullerton, CA
The ATS pictured still resides there and was Ed Niles ATS GTS #2008
Steve

 

i remember seeing the car at norb's garage eons ago..as i recall he had a monteverdi hai and several simca abarth 2000's as well....quite a collection at it's peak....

 

Can anyone share info about this car? These pictures are the only reference I've found so far.

Steve
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Great photos! Thanks for posting them.

Originally it had a rubber strip around the nose and nothing on the rear. This car was given to the mechanic Alf Francis (The ATS F1 mechanic when Phil Hill was with the team) as partial payment by Count Volpi. Alf later sold the car to Bruce McIntosh who worked for ATS Serenissima, Brabham, Williams, with Gordon Murray on the F1 road car project at McLaren and went on to become an FIA official.
I think McIntosh was the first to register it for the road.

 

I bought ATS chassis 002 (a red 2.5 liter car) through Winston Goodfellow from the McCaw collection a few years ago. It is currently being stored with Al Burtoni.

I have been distressed to see what appear to be a number of Giordenengo replicas entering the market as real cars, the most recent being a car recently sold at auction in Germany. There is a blue car in France with the same 015 serial number as the car auctioned in Germany that might also be suspect.

I think it would be very useful for the owners of the real ATS cars to develop a registry of which of the original cars still exist and where they might be. Can anyone help me identify how many cars were actually finished at the factory and with what serial numbers. We should also try to develop a list of which of these original cars are known to have survived in tact, since a couple of GTS cars were reported to have been destroyed in accidents in period. I know there may be gray areas like the incomplete car given to one of the mechanics but that should simply be identified as what it is.

One helpful step would be to understand the factory's chassis numbering system since the cars with serial numbers like 015 seem well outside what I understood to be that system. My impression is that the 2.5 liter cars were numbered 001 et seq and the 3.0 lier cars 201 et seq, with neither series making it into double digit numbers. Again, if anyone has any better information, that would be useful.

Thank you for your help

 

Bernard,
I have attempted to assemble a rough registry of the original cars from the factory and from the correct time period. I have used publicly available information, my personal knowledge, and direct contact with the owners and former owners of these cars.

Some notes;

1. ->There were probably 7 or 8 cars built to a state where they could be sold. I was in contact with Alf Francis in the early 80's, he was hired to help run the formula one effort. His recollection was that

they had more chassis than bodies, and there were likely about 12 chassis. However his memory was a little vague on the details.

2. ->The cars damaged in the transporter accident were not GT cars but Formula one cars. Here is a link to more info on that; EdM000N009

3. ->One of the (2?) GT racers was involved in an accident at Reims on July 3, 1964. The car was very likely destroyed. Details of that accident are here; Motorsport Memorial -

4. ->The factory distinction between GT and GTS had to do with several things NOT including displacement. Some cars were apparently bored out to 3.0 liters, but not neccessarily by the factory. The GT cars

were supposed to be steel bodied cars with radios, heaters, power windows, sound proofing, a fully-synchronized ZF transmission and (2)42DCN Weber carbs. The GTS, had none of that. No heater, no sychros, no

roll-up windows but (4)42DCN Weber carbs and an aluminum body. In practice however there are no two cars alike.

5. ->The chassis numbering used by the factory in six cars whose history goes back (somewhat) to the factory are 4 digit numbers; #1001 #2003 #2004 #2005 #2006 #2008. The complete number stamped on my car is

"-ATS-GTS 2500-2005-".If it had been bored out to 3.0 liters it presumably would read "-ATS-GTS 3000-2005-" I have not seen with my own eyes the chassis numbers as stamped on the other cars. The VIN given

for the car auctioned by Coys is 15/63. My guess is that this number was chosen by its builder to suggest the 15th chassis built in 1963 which would put the number safely higher than the factory output (and

thus not likely to conflict with other cars numbers) while also implying that it was built in 1963.

6. ->There is significant evidence that Giordenengo has aquired some ATS chassis and parts from the original production stocks. If true, then it would be folly to expect them not to build cars out of these

parts, as this is part of the business he is in. However, if they or others are misrepresenting the cars, that's another matter which should be exposed.


Any helpful additions, corrections and editorial suggestions to this list are welcome. I sincerely hope I have not stepped on anyones toes.

=================================================================================
ATS GT #1001

1963 Geneva Auto Show
1966 Ed Niles Los Angeles, CA
19?? Chuck Jones
1973 Paul Bernardo Santa Ana, CA
197? John Krimmell Evergreen, CO
1976 Steve Berry Littleton, CO
1978 Bill Peters Chama, NM
198? Norbert McNamara Waterford, CA
1990 Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance
200? unknown (bought from the McNamara estate)
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ATS GT? #2001 possible Targa Florio car?
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ATS GT? #2002 possible Targa Florio car?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ATS GT #2003

1963 Paris Auto Show
19?? Thepenier's Paris, France
19?? Tom Price
19?? Bruce Milner Westwood, Ca.
2003 T.M. Minnesota
2006 Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance
2008 Concorso d'Eleganza Villa d'Este
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ATS GT #2004

1964 Alf Francis at ATS
1966 Bruce McIntosh England, (McLaren)
196? Carl Rosner South Croyden, England,
1971 Jack Mooring Palmdale, CA
197? Norbert McNamara Waterford, CA
2005 Richard Powers Costa Rica
2009 Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance
2010 unknown (sold at RM London auction)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ATS GTS #2005

1964 Bill Mitchell (VP GM Styling)
19?? unknown (Detroit area insurance exec ?)
1977 Steve Berry
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ATS GTS #2006

1965 Tom Meade Westwood, CA
19?? unknown
1979 Bill Peters Chama, NM
198? unknown
198? BM Los Angeles, CA
2001 Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance
2004 Concorso Italiano
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ATS GTS #2008

1965 Ed Niles Los Angeles , CA
196? Jerry Rosenstock Hollywood, CA
1974 Nickolas Begovich Fullerton, CA
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ATS GTS #15/63 (VIN not in series with other cars)

19?? unknown
1987 Dr Karl Gerstl Graz, Austria
1987 Coppa d'Oro delle Dolomii
2007 Gaisbergrennen Salzburg
2012 unknown (Sold at Coys Old Timers auction)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
=================================================================================

 

I bought both of my cars from Francesco Nicola Cima, Italy, who claimed some connection with the factory and ended up with the two cars when they closed their doors. Chuck Jones installed a Chevy V-8 engine in the GT model, and I think Jerry Rosenstock (a friend to whom I had sold the GTS) ended up with the original engine from Chuck.

These two cars were like night and day. GT was plush, quiet, and easy to drive. GTS was noisy, hot, and went like stink, much like a 250LM except for the sloppy shift linkage.

 

::: ATS - AUTOSPORT ::: Stile Italiano Puro

 

ATS GT 1001 -- ATS GTS 2008

Ed,
You bought the two cars on two occasions, does that make two seperate trips to the ATS factory? Could you place the dates of your trip(s), and describe your visits in more detail? Here are some fairly recent photos of #1001, Currently owned by Bernard Carl.

Steve
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I bought both cars (the GT first) on description. The trip to the factory was not connected directly with the purchases; just happened to be on vacation in Italy about that time. Met Alf Francis and had a grand time with him and his moglie Italiana (as he called her) and Pete and Lella Coltrin. Them wuz the days. Of course I visited the Ferrari Factory and a bunch of small shops like Drogo, Tom Meade, et al.

 

Sounds like a fun trip,
Thanks,
Steve

 

ATS ad in post #61 here:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-redline-restorations/382162-few-more-asking-prices-golden-years-4.html

 

Hi Steve and other ATS spotters,

Great thread - fantastic to see something definitive in the way of a register at long last and many thanks Steve for sharing.

I've been keeping notes on the whereabouts of these cars for about 20 years albeit from a great distance and have very similar chains of ownership.

Steve you posted the following for #2004

1964 Alf Francis at ATS
1966 Bruce McIntosh England, (McLaren)
196? Carl Rosner South Croyden, England,
1971 Jack Mooring Palmdale, CA
197? Norbert McNamara Waterford, CA
2005 Richard Powers Costa Rica
2009 Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance
2010 unknown (sold at RM London auction)

I have a note that Rosner was advertising the car in early 1974 (plus a spare engine) and believe the car was still in the UK as late as 1977, when dealer Brian Classic had it for sale.

I have read it previously belonged to Bruce McIntosh, who bought it from Alf Francis, and was crashed and badly damaged in Surrey. Rosner bought the wreck part-way through rebuilding it for McIntosh.

Can you elaborate a little on Jack Mooring's ownership or confirm the dates?

Cheers,
Damien

 

Welcome Damien!
Thanks for your interest and kind words.

I hope the registry will be definitive at some point, but there are many holes in the data.
I tried as a general rule to put the earliest known date of possession for each owner-entry, but much of what I have is second hand and subject to my lack of note taking skills. So for example,when I say Alf Francis told me he sold 2004 to Bruce McIntosh, he either didn't say or I didn't record when that actually happened, so I made a guess based on the context of the conversations I had with him. Also, Alf told me about McIntosh crashing the car backwards into a ditch after cocktails.

There has been a significant amount of bad information on the web (promotional in nature) about this car, and ATS in general, during the run-up to the 2010 RM auction in London. I tried avoid using any of this, and would advise others to do the same.

I don't know when Mooring bought 2004 but MacNamera wrote to me about a bill dated 1979 for previous work done on the car for Mooring. So that would be the earliest date known to me.

I visited Mooring at his home in Lancaster, California in the spring of 1984. The car had the louvered rear window and modified rear bodywork and tailamps. He also had a spare engine with 38 IDM Weber side-draft carbs, and a set of blueprints from the factory. I'm not sure if he had it for sale at that time, but the next encounter I had with the car was when Norb MacNamara called me asking for info, something like two years after that, maybe 1986...

So a few adjustments...

ATS GT #2004

1964 Alf Francis at ATS
196? Bruce McIntosh England, (McLaren)
196? Carl Rosner South Croyden, England,
1977 Brian Classic Cheshire, UK
1979 Jack Mooring Lancaster, CA
1985 Norbert McNamara Waterford, CA
1988 Pebble Beach
1989 Modesto Concours (scca) a win!
2005 Richard Powers Costa Rica
2009 Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance
2010 unknown (sold at RM London auction)

I'm going to do a revamp on this registry in the fall so any additional info will be greatly
appreciated. Thanks for your help!

Cheers,
Steve

 

This ATS also won the Iso & Bizzarrini class at the Palos Verdes Concours d'Elegance in 2009. I am not sure why it was in the Iso & Bizzarrini class, my Bizzarrini GT 5300 Strada was second in class that day so I would have been happy if it had been in another class. Here is one of my many photos of this ATS. I was wondering why the bumpers are missing.
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Here is an ATS 2500 GT that was at Pebble Beach in 2006 - I was comparing this one to the red one at Palos Verdes and notice this one has bumpers and the red one does not.
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Mike,
Of all the ATS pictured in this forum only two have bumpers;

ATS GT 1001 the red one pictured above
ATS GT 2003 the black one you attached

The others have either nothing or a thin chrome trim piece on the front. Also, many older Ferraris and other exotics are similarly naked, no?

Steve

 

Steve,

So are you saying that the ATS did not come with bumpers or like many Italian cars of the 1960s each one was different depending on the parts they had in the factory that day?

 

Many older street Ferraris had the bumpers removed by owners for various reasons. Hard to find parts and costly to rebuilt if they are lost.

 

Mike,
Actually, it is only the two show cars that did have bumpers;
#1001 the Geneva Auto Show car
#2003 the Paris Auto Show car

And yes, each car was probably a reset from scratch, given the chaotic history of the company.

Steve

 

Hello everyone,

Congratulations for this amazing post.

My little contribution may add a little more confusion, but i think it's interesting to say that the italian plate (Roma 556448) of the grey ATS is from 1962, as can be extracted form Tabelle per targhe italiane
In that website you can find that numbers went from 499287 to 580695 on that year (Jan 1 / Dec 31), which put this chassis prior 2500 GT launch (possible??).

Should we consider the use of an older plate feasible in 60s Italy?



(Being this plate original to the car, ATS would be challenging with Bonnet DJet (first ones delivered in July '62) for the First mid-engine road car Title..)

 

what transmission did they use?
Since less than a dozen ATS coupes were made, wouldn't this be among the hardest engines in the world to source if you wanted to put the car back as per original? Or could you use one of the Serenissima racing V8s, of which there might have been a couple floating about?

It seems like the rarity of the engine is what makes a restoration of an ATS almost insurmountable....and thus off-putitng to someone who would buy one without an engine for restoration