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attack in spain

Discussion in 'Other Off Topic Forum' started by tifosi, Mar 11, 2004.

  1. Garretto

    Garretto F1 Rookie

    Sep 3, 2003
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    Hi Ross. Yes, the "combo" possibility has been mentioned though it is not really probable.

    At first sight yesterday all indicated to ETA. After all they've been performing similar attacks (though at smaller scale) all around spain for about 30 years. As hours went by, news came in that the small political group that supports ETA strongly condemned the attacks (that would be a 1st for an ETA attack, they never reject ETA attacks). Then the police found out arab-related evidences, not determinant, though. Later last night what was supposed to be a reivindication of the attacks from Al Qaeda. Still no one is 100% sure.

    Don't get me wrong, ETA has killed many innocent people (800+) in the last 30 years, bombing regardless of knowing there wolud be "civilian" victims including children, etc. It's only the size of the attack that makes me suspect. A "typical" ETA attack would have been only one bomb with a result, say of 15 people killed. Yesterday attacks are really too big for ETA's mo. THat was at least 10 different people leaving bombs in the different trains. Strange for ETA, indeed.

    Being distantly objective all points to arab terrorism, but dont be fooled by previous arab attacks, it could very well turn out that it was ETA. THey've been strongly triyng to perform bombings in train stations in Madrid for a few months.

    Not to mention that there are presidential elections on Sunday and the knowledge of who's actually responsible for these attacks could very well determine the election result.
     
  2. mark_b

    mark_b Karting

    Dec 11, 2002
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    it wasnt 911 days - it was 912 (but it was a leap year so maybe there is something in that).

    The train was actually 2 minutes late. The bomb would have gone off in the middle of the station if it hadnt been... So presumably they were aiming for a larger "target". ETA usually go for smaller targets so it doesnt really sound like their thing.

    Also ETA usually stake claim to their campaigns, but this time they havent, which does point to someone other than them. Plus they have disowned it which can or cant be taken with a pinch of salt. Also they tend to go for "authority" targets - police, judges etc - seems strange that this time it was the public

    No doubt it'll be a few months before anyone finds out who did it.

    Its yet another tragedy, and there will no doubt be more...
     
  3. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    mark b, sorry mate but your avatar is offensive.
     
  4. davem

    davem F1 Veteran
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    Ross. Trust me we Americans do not think it is over. Sadly it really is just in its infancy at this level i fear.
     
  5. Uberpower

    Uberpower Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2004
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    Never in my life have I met more genuine, friendly and warm-hearted people than while travelling in Spain.

    I would be walking along the streets and people would come up to me and ask me to hold my 5 month old son. Obviously I was perplexed the first time and stayed very close to the woman, but she just bounced him around and cooed at is face and remarked at how beautiful he was, then gave him back.

    This happened multiple times along the course of my 2 week trip.

    Anyone that would do this to the extraordinary people of Spain are a big lot of cowardly, sad fvcks.

    Nick
     
  6. Wolfgang

    Wolfgang F1 World Champ
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    I second this!

    @@@@@ROB, or any other moderator@@@@@@

    Can you please delete this!
    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/member.php?u=1120

    Thanks in advance

    Wolfarossa
    FORZA FERRARI
     
  7. JH

    JH F1 Veteran

    Nov 14, 2002
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    This morning ETA was still the prime suspects - They 97% sure that it was the ETA. The militant part of ETA has still not made any statements. I don't think it was Al-Qaeda, they would not choose a train station, more likely New Camp when Barcelona played or something like that. But ETA on the other hand, has done this kind before, not in this scale, but it was the same way it was done, and it was the same explosives as all the other times. Plus there is also election soon, and everyone who follows this know, that ETA is big democratic opponents and want's to be dependent. Everything points at them. I can't see who it could not be them :(

    But still, no one should be excluded to this, it could be Al-Qaeda, PLO or some other org. Very sad, 200 dead and 1500 wounded.


    And I agree to this. That's just not right. The sad part is, that it looks alittle like him. Get rid of it please.
     
  8. mark_b

    mark_b Karting

    Dec 11, 2002
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    sorry guys - no offence meant - I was just playing around with photoshop and maybe took it too far, I've changed it now

    Sorry...
     
  9. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
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    Jonas, what would the PLO want in Spain? That doesnt even make sense, considering they seem to have their hands tied up with other concerns at the moment.
     
  10. JH

    JH F1 Veteran

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    Nothing, it was just an example. Just to mention someone :)
     
  11. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    frogman, i am american and i know your statement holds a lot of truth.

    however, during the recent primary campaign it has appeared to me that the populus was agreeing with the candidates when they were trying to play down the terrorism aspect in order to gain momentum on gwb. they said that our current spending on homeland security and the military were excessive given the lack of further action by alqueda; they said that the patriot act was too imposing on civil rights - when its simply trying to put some kind of safety filter on our free-for-all lifestyles; and they have continued to discount the terrorist's effect on the economy - when in fact the spanish incident just caused another sell-off, once again demonstrating that the financial world reacts negatively to terror, for those short on memory and quick to blame gwb for the crash.

    what i meant by that short sentence, was that this war is long from over and we cannot loosen up on any of the actions we have taken, and we cannot think that we have beaten alqueda just because we haven't heard from them in a while - they only need to be lucky once, we need to be lucky every time.
     
  12. ralfabco

    ralfabco Two Time F1 World Champ
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    There is no finish line; as long as societies refuse to modernize, and live in the 13th century.
     
  13. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

    Given that Spain has a long running issue with the ETA and there is an election around the corner we may not know much for a few more days....but here's the latest report from overseas about the tragedy. The police have apparently arrested 3 Morrocans and 2 Indian nationals but what I have been able to read is vague at this point. Terrorism is terrorism regardless in any event.....be it the Basque separatists or some one else.

    -------------------

    http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/390384|top|03-13-2004::12:09|reuters.html

    By Daniel Trotta
    MADRID, Spain (Reuters) - Spain's intelligence service is "99 percent certain" Muslim not Basque militants perpetrated the Madrid train bombings that killed 200 people, a Spanish radio station reported on Saturday.

    The report by private radio SER, whose owners have links to the opposition Socialists, flew in the face of government assertions armed group ETA was the prime suspect in the attacks that have traumatized Spain and sent jitters round the world.

    It fueled grumbling from critics that Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's government might be focusing on the Basque group, rather than al Qaeda, for internal political gain ahead of Sunday's election. Ministers angrily denied the charge.

    "If (they think) it is al Qaeda, nobody has told me," Interior Minister Angel Acebes said, when asked if intelligence services were tending toward blaming Islamic militants for the blasts.

    Finding the culprits for Thursday's atrocity, which killed 200 people and wounded 1,500, has huge global security implications. If it was al Qaeda, it would be the first strike in the West since the September 11, 2001, attacks on America.

    If it were ETA, it would be a major escalation for a group that has killed 850 people in Spain over 36 years and is listed as a terrorist group by the United States and European Union.

    It could also sway Spain's general election, going ahead on Sunday as planned after three days of official mourning.

    Aznar's center-right government stands to win votes if the culprits were ETA, because it has campaigned on its hardline stance against the armed Basque group, political analysts said.

    "DEATH FOR TERRORISTS"

    If al Qaeda or other radical Islamic groups were shown to be involved, voters might perceive the attacks as the price for Aznar's domestically unpopular support of the Iraq war. But they might also rally around a government seen as strong on security.

    Citing high-ranking officials, SER radio said the National Intelligence Center (CNI) believes evidence points to an Islamic group, and that 10 to 15 people left bombs on trains and fled.

    "The evidence has wiped out previous indications that led us to believe in ETA," the radio quoted one source as saying.

    The change came after a van was found later on Thursday, near the Alcala de Henares station where three of the four bombed trains originated, with an audio tape lesson about the Koran and seven detonators inside, the radio station said.

    In a separate development, the doorman of the building across from where the van was found told Spanish media he saw three masked men get out of it the morning of the attacks.

    Throughout Saturday -- a day that had been supposed to be an official "day of reflection" prior to the election -- traumatized Spaniards were burying their dead.

    The nation's grief and anger was crystallized at a funeral service in Alcala de Henares, home to 40 of the dead.

    "Death penalty for the terrorists," said a weeping Violeta Dominguez, whose daughter lost a friend. "This has no end. They will go on killing because they enjoy killing."

    "There is a divine justice that nobody can escape from. They (those responsible) will never escape from this justice," Roman Catholic Bishop Jesus Catala told hundreds of mourners.

    Spain does not have a death penalty and Aznar has said he is personally against it.

    Demonstrating the depth of feeling in Spain, the government said 11.64 million people -- more than a quarter of Spain's population -- had taken to rain-drenched streets in nationwide protests on Friday against "our September 11."

    ELECTION LOOMS

    A group tied to al Qaeda has claimed responsibility for the attacks and ETA has denied it -- but neither statement has been confirmed to be genuine.

    "Whether it was ETA or al Qaeda doesn't affect the shared repudiation of terrorism, but it may have different political and electoral consequences," the left-leaning daily El Pais said in an editorial on Saturday.

    Aznar is to step down, but his hand-picked successor, former Deputy Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, is seeking a third straight four-year term for the center-right Popular Party.

    Socialist candidate Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, who opposed the war in Iraq but has backed Aznar in the fight against ETA, is seeking to return the Socialists to power for the first time since Aznar unseated Felipe Gonzalez in 1996.

    In Madrid, relatives continued their agonising vigils in hospitals where the worst of the wounded were being treated.
     
  14. wax

    wax Four Time F1 World Champ
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    5 arrested thus far.

    "Spain's interior ministry announced today that five suspects - including three Moroccans possibly linked to extremist groups - were arrested in the Madrid bombings that killed at least 200 people.

    The five were arrested in connection with a cell phone inside an explosives-packed gym bag found on one of the bombed commuter trains.

    The other two suspects had Indian passports, a ministry spokesman said. Also being questioned were two Spanish citizens of Indian origin."
    _

    Reported elsewhere is: "Spain says autopsies show no evidence of suicide bombers"

    Incidentally, there is no Death Penalty in Spain.
     
  15. ART360

    ART360 Guest

    Read:

    Blowback, by Chalmers. It explains it all right there. First written in 99, it was up dated in 01 or 02 aftr 9/11. By the way: el jazera has the letter from al qaeda about the bombings. They claimed in response to the Spain troops in Iraq.

    Art
     
  16. teak360

    teak360 F1 Veteran
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    I believe this will turn out to be the work of Arab terrorists.
     
  17. ART360

    ART360 Guest

    The people in Spain figured it out, and threw the conservatives out of office. They will be bringing their troops home.

    Art
     
  18. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

    In his latest column, David Broder looks back on the election and 1944 and finds this quote from Democratic Senator Samuel Jackson of Indiana

    "How many battleships would a Democratic defeat be worth to Tojo? How many Nazi legions would it be worth to Hitler? ...We must not allow the American ballot box to be made Hitler's secret weapon."

    And that was from a time when BOTH PARTIES were serious about defending America. Today, Republicans take stopping terrorism seriously while many Democrats only seem to be able to get fired up about using the military to prop up left-wing dictators masquerading as popularly elected leaders like Jean-Bertrand Aristide. Sadly, tragically, defending America really has become a partisan issue.

    However, since it's a partisan issue, it's something that I think Americans need to consider when they go to the ballot box in November.

    So I say to all Americans, "Can we allow our ballot box to become Osama Bin Laden's secret weapon? Can we afford to give Syria, Iran, & North Korea the candidate they most assuredly want as President? How can we in good conscience put a man like John Kerry into the White House when we know the danger our country faces?"

    Call that "brutal," "exploitive," or "mean" if you like, but I'd rather be correct than polite in this situation. We absolutely cannot risk giving the terrorist groups of global reach and the rogue states that support them a 4 year breather while John Kerry plays pattycake with Kofi Annan & a bunch of international lawyers. This is serious business with serious consequences.......too serious to risk putting man in office who is more concerned what Old Europe thinks than defending America from terrorists.
     
  19. ralfabco

    ralfabco Two Time F1 World Champ
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    KDS:

    You are correct. Most people are only interested in what is on TV tonite.
    Americans are historically isolationists. It is unfair that a jealous group of
    people hate our free and democratically elected modern society. Unfortunately we have begun to be involved in a permanent struggle against people who are intent on trying to ruin some free societies in the world. There is no finish line in our struggle. Saudi Arabia has spent 70 billion dollars on exporting Wahibi fundamentalism worldwide.

    Our society aims to improve itself.

    They want to preserve their society
    in the 13th century forever.

    We must protect our society through
    tactical pre-emptive actions.
     
  20. Garretto

    Garretto F1 Rookie

    Sep 3, 2003
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    I would like to remind you that the people of Spain strongly opposed the government taking part in Irak war. By 'strongly' I mean the biggest ever demonstrations to date showing that Spaniards were fully against any kind of militar intervention in Irak. All media also against interevention, I would say more than 99% of the Spanish people were against the war. Even Aznar voters were! So this was possibly one of the clearest examples of a government ignoring people's voice in a modern democracy.

    You cannot dissappoint the public opinion in such a great extent and in such an important matter as a war and then simply hope they forget about it in the next elections. Not to mention other domestic mistakes.

    It is very sad that last Thursday's attacks have helped people remember how wrong the administration of this goverment has been. But it is clear that Spain does not want war, does not want terrorism, does not want a liar and deaf government and, yes, we tend to forget mistakes very soon.
     
  21. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    yea art, we need to leave with our tails between our legs because that is the sure way of getting alqueda to stop terrorizing us.....what a load of crap.

    and aren't you the one who took up a zillion bits of bandwidth to tell us that iraq and alqueda were not linked and the 2 parties did not cooperate together? ....another load of crap.

    terrorism must be faced head-on and fought actively. trying to hide from it will not save you.
     
  22. wax

    wax Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Terrorists are using Reverse Psychology. Examples:
    So, there's low opinion of cooperating with the US, aye?
    That's exactly what Terrorists want.
    So, the Conservatives got tossed out of office in Spain, aye?
    That's exactly what Terrorists want.
    Even if they get killed, caught & convicted, etc. they still win.
    No matter what, not just in spite of, but even because of their Extreme "'Political' Statements," Terrorists can't lose.
    Or can some F-Chatters only see out of their left eye?
     
  23. ralfabco

    ralfabco Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Oh yes terrorists can lose. Take it to "their" village. That is the way to fight terrorism. Yes it is not moral. But who started the war ? Morals
    do not win these types of wars. Small tactical unit actions will win the
    war over time.
     
  24. teak360

    teak360 F1 Veteran
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    The Spaniards are giving in now at the expense of the free world as a whole later.
     
  25. ART360

    ART360 Guest

    Ross:

    They weren't connected but they probably are now. I did warn about that with the bandwidth. Try reading what I said before. I used this line: "welcome to the west bank".

    The Spaniards did't want any part of this, and their government took them into it without their permission, thinking there wouldn't be any consequences, Iraq was no threat to them. What the government forgot is that the Arabs would view this as being against all Arabs, and react accordingly. How many of you have read the letter from Al Qaeda? Bet not too many. Before you open your mouths, read the letter: they are taking this as a holy war, and I suspect they've found quite a few new recruits. Dumb.

    This is exactly what you get when you don't think your way through a problem. The rule of unintended consequences. What scares me is that the dumb have apparently taken over, and are letting their pride rule this issue. That will bring more, and more retribution. Ask the Israelis about that little quirk: tighten down to eliminate the suicide bombers. Sure worked for them, didn't it? I think if we can get ride of the dumbs and liars, we might have a chance to stop this before it gets out of hand. If not, there'll be a major change in our society, and not for the best.

    Art
     

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