Art..... The solution is simple. All this talk about consequences is irrelevant. There is nothing to think about from the US viewpoint. Hell.....Nixon ended US involvement in Vietnam in 2 weeks in December 1972 because he had balls and wasn't worried sick about retribution to act.....not even from the Russians or the Chinese. To them it's a holy war and they willfully and without forethought target innocent civilians by the tens of thousands. Their governments, the UN and their people seemingly pay lip service to us in this regard. Yet people like you and others vascilate and ass kiss on moral grounds while worrying about consequences and how Old Europe will view us. Utterly pathetic. If they detonate a nuke or a dirty weapon in a US city give them what they want....real war. Tell them we are going to turn the entire Arabic and Islamic world into dust one city at a time in it's entirety until they stop. Delivery in 30 minutes or it's free. Let's start with Mecca.........and do it. They are not stupid people......once the first mushroom cloud subsides and they realise we have started to wipe them off the face of this planet they will either stop or die.........and as for us........it's their problem and I will sleep good at night with a clear conscience. It's people like you that make me lose sleep. Let the rest of the world go to hell if they have a problem with it. This posture is what kept us safe for the duration of the cold war.
art you said: 'I think if we can get ride of the dumbs and liars, we might have a chance to stop this before it gets out of hand.' ok art, i am genuinely ready to listen to your idea for a solution. let's hear it. if it has merit we can send it on to those who can implement it.
I have no idea what the Spanish were doing in Iraq and why they went against the wishes of their majority. Except for the veiled threats of the US govt ("the you're either for or against us"). It does now appear they are ill-equipped for the consequences. While the US battens down it's borders and home front security, all the nations that played a small part in the war are now going to be in the firing line. I appreciate the Spanish may have been concerned about being branded terrorists by the Bush administration and suffering their economy being crippled by the US. But it is a heavy price to pay. The muslims didn't wake up unhappy yesterday, convenient as that would be to some people on this forum. It's been 50 years of US foreign policy and some horrendously bad decisions (many with good intent) that have got things to where they are now. An eye for an eye means we all finish up blind.
Ross: We do what we should have done from the start: get the rest of the world involved. Hans Blix's new book says that if Bush had waited another few months, he'd have gotten the balance of the world on his side, or found out no such weapons. I'd go back to the drawing board on Iraq, and make sure that we get the balance of our allies on board, and we could do that with a UN resolution. That might mean that we can't keep the dollars for ourselves and our close friends, but in turn, we'd get their troops, stature, etc. We might even get an arab allie to help. As to Lin Laden, I'd go after him with the troops in Iraq, all of them. Had we done that, we'd have gotten him. If we did the above, it wouldn't look like we've gone after the Arabs, but rather we're taking our revenge on those who've hurt us, not someone that a lot of Arabs looked at as a Hero (he may not have been, but in a lot of Arab countries, many of their people thought he was a hero). We might even get those responsible for 9/11. Art
art, ok. comments: - news flash, the conflict in iraq is a multi national effort. just because it does not have the explicit agreement of france and germany, does that make it NOT a multi national effort? the un is cooperating and helping out as much as it ever will or can. (for a little insight into how the un is actually run, you might want to check out the wsj article in thursday march 11th edition about the handling of the oil-for-food program.) - the usa did not go into iraq, nor stay for the last year to clean it up and set up a democracy for a quick profit; so your comment about keeping 'the money' for ourselves is mistaken. the money that you are talking about is the US tax payer money that has been granted to iraq by congress for rebuilding the country, and in turn as it always is in these situations, should be spent by hiring american (or allied) companies to do the job. i think most americans and allies would find it hard to swallow that our tax money should go to lining the coffers of indo-suez, total, or edf. - going after ossama is what our military are doing every day. his capture is not dependent on how many soldiers we put in the field. it is more a question of accurate intelligence gathering and then being able to track him down within a 3000 square mile moonscape that is extremely inhospitable and difficult to travel and operate in. our tanks and other armor are not useful there (i've been there and seen it first hand). furthermore, what you are implying is that the US military is not making the maximum effort to catch this man, and i simply cannot believe that we are not giving it the full court press. over all i must say that i am disappointed with your 'master plan'. it does not offer any groundbreaking solution to the problem, it is just additional repudiation of what we are currently doing. sounds a lot like kerry; be critical and rally people against the current administration, but in fact don't offer any alternate tangible solution.
Oh man Garretto, you are so right! I mean, I believe it was 3 million+ just in Barcelona plus another million and a half in Madrid in the anit war rallies.... But still Aznar went for it... It doesn't really matter if he was right or not, it mattered that he went against the peoples opinion. Voters, non-voters, but still SPANISH! I for one, am glad PP lost the lections and to me Aznar will always be seen as an autocratic almost dictator-like PM. I saw a report that said that most Spanish networks are directly controlled by the government, and, like the rally that went on the night before the elections in plaza del sol were, for the FIRST time, they admitted that AlQaeda may have taken a part in the atacks, in Spanish televisions I could only see that "a small crowd was gathered and the government has considered it to be ilegal!" JUST THIS! I mean I had to tune to CNN and RTP to know what was going on!! Terrorism will always exist, but it's up to us and our governments to determine to which extent we let it. By our actions, not just our words, and most certanly not our wars!
As usual ART355 didn't answer Ross's question.....he said what he "would" have done, as opposed to what he "should do next".......which is what he was asked. Terrorists don't care what you would have done....but they sure as hell "might" pay attention to what you are going to do. Problem is......the left wing doesn't like to take positions on issues of life and death and national security because it is the most important issue and later on they may be called to task on it. Now try and ask John Kerry that question.....LOL !!! He'll sound the same as ART355. To digress here for a minute to explain.....Kerry apparently wants to debate GWB....GWB replies...Kerry should stop debating with himself first before he even tries to talk to anybody else. ART355 has inferred in this thread that "run away...run away" in Iraq was the correct "modus operundi" for Spain and should be for the US in Iraq.....then he goes on to say how they should have done things differently in A-Stan.......all the while saying that the Arab/Muslim world views it as a holy war and OBL was their hero.....etc...... They are all our enemies and should be treated as such unless they prove otherwise. Deal with it......it's a fact.....you stated how you think they view it.....why deal with it like it is something else. Problem is.....leftists cannot deal with facts and reality. This "denial of reality" which is the mainstream character trait of someone who espouses left wing political stances is commonplace and the main reason why the middle eastern conflict has gone on as long as it has. This week Israel announced that they were going to take new and drastic long term measures against Hamas.......who wants to bet they start "creatively" killing these people enmass for weeks on end ? Anyone who is willing to accept the sacrifice of tens of thousands of people due to terrorist attacks and leave us open to further attacks on that same scale because they are too scared to face reality and deal with it accordingly are just as dangerous, and as much of an enemy, as the Arabic/Islamic terrorists themselves. Who would OBL vote for ? Not GWB..... The Spaniards can pull out of the GWOT if they want....who cares.....they were not attacked in the first place. Thank you for your support in the interim however.
>Who would OBL vote for ? Not GWB..... The Spaniards can pull out of the GWOT if they want....who cares.....they were not attacked in the first place. Thank you for your support in the interim however. Well said...
Art: Funny how you mentioned about how dumb the Israelis are at clamping down on the terrorists. What you failed to mention was all the benefits the Israelis got from Madrid, Oslo, and Taba while the leftists were in power ? They had "far better" (security) before they tried to make peace with a corrupt and brutal dictatorship. Yes Shamir and Begin had far better security than Rabin and Peres. You cannot make peace with a dictatorship. It has never happened in history. It never will happen. It takes two to Tango. As far as what democratically elected free governments do or do not do, should never weigh on what al queda or whatever terrorist group wants. You cannot negotiate or buy peace with them anyway. Why bother ?
