ATTN: Brian re: Formula Atlantic / Formula Continantal

Steve, not to horn in on Brian's response to your questions, but since you are "new" to the whole formula car/club racing scene, and you've done enough homework to ostensibly buy the correct car and gear, put some miles on the car this year and focus on coming up to speed before sending your motor back to Steve Knapp twice a year.

Until you are "up to speed" in your new car, you're going to need to look inside your head instead of relying solely on the equipment to gain that speed.

Our experience with new (albeit experienced) drivers coming from a Production/GT/Sedan background to Continental and Sports 2000 (same thing except for weight, tub, fenders and wings) is that it takes a minimum of four to six weekends to begin to scratch the surface of the capabilities of the car, and most never get there because they are unwilling or unable to spend the "seat time" required to gain enough experience to trust the car.

The way to avoid disappointment is to make sure you focus on the safety and reliability of the car, put a baseline set-up on it (take NOTHING for granted), buy a new set of tires and drive the car.

As far as tires go, if you use the R25's for qualifying and the R35's for the race (most Regional races aren't long enough and most drivers aren't fast enough to get the R25's to the point where there is a drop off in performance over the short race distance, longer National's are another matter), it is likely you will get two weekends (10 minute practice/qualifying, 15 minute qualifying and 20 minute race, the average single Regional) out of each set easily until you get faster. You can use two sets of rims for dry's and one set for wets, which is what most people do.

You probably don't need a set-up pad, yet. Worst case, if you change something (or crash something) at the track, you can hire some time from a prep shop that's brought one to the track. OTOH, I think Brian's estimate for hand tools and travel/accommodations are a bit light!

I'm sure he and others will chime in, but because this is such a car and venue culture change for you (and you cannot comprehend how much until you get there ), just DRIVE THE CAR!

Good luck and maybe we'll see you at Summit and/or VIR.

-Peter

 

And BTW, Atlantic is in a completely different league than Continental. We life the Cosworths at 8-10 hours... and you could buy four Continental/S2 freshenings for one Atlantic...

Be sure to look out for those guys as you're tooling around, though. Don't want to get run over!

Peter (Remember watching Tom Nastasi's dad, Steve and Tom Shelton and Nick Soprano going at it in Atlantics a long time ago. Wow, those guys were fast!)

 

Steve,

Peter comments are about 100% on. I can only add the following:

You will spend as much as you can, in general--There is really no logical price/performance parameters to use.

A single rebuild per season is probably good enough. I do a complete rebuild in the winter and then a freshening mid way thru the season, if I have enough hours on the engine. The freshen is pretty cheap, as I do that one myself.

Tires are the single biggest variable cost-Peter is right on about compounds and life. The thing about tires are how seductive (and ultimately this is bad!) a new set can be. You have instant speed with fresh rubber, you also have instant confidence with new rubber. All this can be fun, but it can be expensive and ultimately a bad thing to do, as it never gets you to learn about tire management, and when a ire is just lost it's intial grip, versus one that really has gone away.

In the end, it is probably better to learn on older slower tires first. You will be slower, but you probably are still not as fast as the car-so the speed will come from you. Throwing sticky tires on won't teach you much. (But boy, is it fun!)

At your level, based on what I can tell (and mine too!) we have had some decent seat time in production cars and maybe some formula school experience but the change to a "proper" race car with wings and slicks is a real eye opener!

It will take some time to develop the confidence to brake as late as you can and still carry what sems to be way to much corner speed! That's what downforce and slicks will do. The downforce part is weird, as to a degree, the fastest you go, the more downforce you make, so you can go faster thru a turn! There are diminishing returns, obviously, but it takes some getting use too.

Also the breakaway characteristics of a slick are a bit more harsh than any DOT style tire. They have a more peaky sweet spot, and then fall off pretty quick beyond that point. So they feel like they all of a sudden lose all grip-which they don't, but it is much more pronounced with slicks.

Also you will be amazed at the "sensitivity" of the car, it's feedback and response "quickness" to your inputs. This is what I really like about Formula cars, no matter how trick a production based race car you have, they are always sloppy and unresponsive relative to an open wheeler.

This can also be a disadvantage, as an open wheeler needs to be set up more precisely than a production car, in order to really get the best out of it. Like the slicks, an open wheeler has a smaller sweetspot, and is harder to find.

But don't worry too much about that up front-I would suggest trying to get a basic setup from somebody that works pretty well everywhere. It will not be the hot set up but will be fine at this stage. You want a forgiving, controllable car that has some U/S in it, that is pretty stable. This is not the "fast" set up, but will allow you to learn the car in comparitive safety. I would talk to some of your fellow FF2000 drivers in your region, explain your situation and see if they can reccomend a decent "learners" set up.

It may also be worthwhile to spend the money and have a local track support group/team, who maintain and run these cars for clients, do a proper setup for you. They will make sure the car is "correct" and should be willing to give you some basic set up advice for some one who is learning the ropes.

This, of course leads to the question of trackside support. It sounds like you plan to do the transportin, wrenching, etc. yourself. I tend to like this, as for me half the fun is working on your own car. But remember that this method will take away from the focus on just driving the car/learning o race. Though it can be more expensive, you can also look at having a team do all the support/wrenching, setup, etc. Basically you arrive and drive. The costs are higher (You have to pay their labor-yours is "free") but may be something for you to think about.

Don't get caught up in making too many car set up changes initially. It is real easy to lose your way and with the limited track time and you will be moving backwards in the end. Stay with a basic set up, don't be changing springs, dampers, wings much at the track early on. If you need to balance the U/S, O/S of the car I woud stick to bars initially. They are easy and quick to change and you can go back to the original set up real fast if you get lost.

Do not play with dampers at this time-to easy to really get lost!

Improve yourself first, then the car.

 

And .... don't get in the habit of relying on the wings for grip. They can be a bit of a crutch, I think. It really opens your eyes when you see in the data the effect wings have on top speed.

 

you will be surprised how quickly you feel you get up to speed. as stated, the ff are real momentum cars and you will be rewarded by being smooth. you will be surprised how much is left in the car as you get more familiar w/ it.

the process of getting up to speed in a ford will spoil you for anything w/ fenders short of an s2000.

you will need to develope a good relationship w/ a motor builder. curtis farley, roland butler, jay ivy, quicksilver...all good chioces. pick one!

enjoy the ride. btw, is john baytos still the van diemen guy?

pcb

 

Pete,

Baytos sold out to Panoz a couple years ago. He then sold the IMSA Lights series to Panoz as well. Smart guy!

The engine builder stuff is true. Once you get to a certain point, they're all very, very close.

Rollin gets my vote, but after buying, selling, racing and wrnching four dozen Sports 2000 cars over the last four years, there's not much diffence between the top of the line engines from Elite (Steve Knapp), Quicksilver (Sandy Shamlian), Cricket Farms (Rollin Butler), Ivey (Jay Ivey), MWE (Ted Wenz), Jim Justice, Curtis Farley and a number of others.

I can go fast with nearly any of them!

-Peter

 

Steven;
You will find lots of helpful people at www.ApexSpeed.com

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/index.php?

I chose FM (tube frame) because of lower operation costs, but didnt expect the crash dammage expenses to be so high. Same wrecks in a Continental would have been double +

 

Wonderful advice here. FWIW we used to use Quicksilver motors in the FF2000/Continentals and we'd only have them rebuilt over the winter. Bertels (sp?) was used for our Atlantic engines. Two totally separate animals.

Also good advice about not playing with the shocks or wings at first. You've got set-up sheets for the car for separate tracks and I'd start with those. But, you'll be forewarned you'll probably have to change the gearing for yourself as you probably won't be as quick through the turns as they were, so the gearing would be off by a bit. I'd practice that quite a bit if I were you.

Get that gearbox apart, stack the gears, and put them back in the box. You won't need to fill it with fluid, then rock the car back and forth and select first on up as you rock the car. You should be able to get into each gear. Then take it apart and do it all over again with some different gears. Practice makes perfect and it needs to be second nature for you. The better you are at it the quicker you can do it and the more time you can have on track.

 

As always terrific advice.
You need to learn how to set up a Continental properly. Pay an expert for his hard earned knowledge until you feel comfortable.
I spent way too much time dicking around setting up a "simple FM" to enjoy the show fully.
I had friends chase their tails in a FC and honestly they never did really come to grips with it. These were experianced National level owners.

 

steven...u will be selling the 308...not the van diemen! i know of what i speak.

pcb

 

there is no turning back and you will be the next to say...

"if you can't see the wheels...it aint racing"

 

sports 2000 notwithstanding!!!

 

Thanks, Peter!

-Peter (#136, the old car )
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Steven,

You have the absolute right attitude! Try out FC and see if it fits. (I think you will be just fine.) If it doesn't, then you have the experience and knowledge that comes from that. Our worth and value comes from the experiences we have, not the money or power we seek!

 

You made the right choice, Steve. Going from a "street car" to a purpose-built car is awesome!

-Peter

 

Steve, for me, the only true race cars are formula cars. I gave it a try in FM and later (and briefly) an FF2000 Zetec powered car - the latter was an amazing little car. Now, having seen me drive, I prefer to have something substantial around me, but I'd very much regret never having tried formula cars.

If you get hooked, you may want to try pro formula mazda, an interesting series. And, see yourself on TV! Good luck, Will

 

"i grew up on a Schwinn (no tassles but it did have a banana seat)."

The stingray, was it? Had the banana seat and a sissy bar. I think, eventually, I had a wider back tire. Wish I'd kept it.

As you probably know, pro Mazda has a masters division. My friend John Faulkner, former Challenge racer Doug Peterson and other "old guys" have raced in pro mazda. They can't beat the kids, even on a good day, but - consider Paul Newman - at just a touch over 40, you have 40 racing years ahead of you!

 

Steven; of all the F2000 cars, the VD 1998+ is the way to go. Lots of base data and spares available.
There is no thrill compared to Formula racing. Anywhere. From Vee and up.
Buy and adhere to Carrol Smiths "Tune to Win" and "Prepare to Win".
The bibles of race car prep.
Any way you look at this, you reached for the stars.