Awesome F22 picture

incredible photo! this just reminds me how amazing technology is. thanks!

 

I just hope that there are enough people in Washington smart enough to realize that 187 Raptors is simply an inadequate total to last the next 30 years or so......

 

The really amazing part is the F-22 easily goes supersonic in mil power. Clean enough and enough power in mil to leave a supersonic trail for quite a distance. Really handy at night when an afterburner plume makes you too easy to see, even 15-20 nm away.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

This is great stuff. Re shock waves. I was always told that the particles of air were compressed tightly enough to be seen. The 707 could produce a standing shock wave on the wing near the fuselage that was photographed several times. I had never thought about it being lit up by the after burner.
Switches

 

What happened to the F-35 project? Wasn't the F-35 the real reason that the F-22 is being produced in larger numbers?

 

What happened to the F-35 project? Wasn't the F-35 the real reason that the F-22 is being produced in larger numbers?

 

Jean- Actually, one justification for shutting down the F-22 production line was to speed up introduction of the F-35, at least 4000 of which will probably be built. Congress prohibited foreign sales of the F-22 because its technology and performance makes it a conflict-dominant asset, but the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter has always been an international program.

Essentially we have given up our future F-15-type air supremacy asset and are replacing it with an F-16-type general purpose asset. We shall see how that works, most likely to the detriment of our future AF.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

The F-22 and F-35 are by far my two favorite planes. But why stop production of the F-22 for the F-35? Isn't the F-22 more useful for what we are doing in Iraq? It makes no sense to stockpile a large amount of F-35s, we need to be ready for any type of warfare, so why slash F-22 production?

 

Austin- The F-22 price is 2-3 times that of an F-35. It is an air superiority fighter that can do air to ground if forced to do so. The F-35 is an air to ground fighter that can do air to air fairly well. The F-22 is designed to sweep the skies of high performance hostile aircraft, and is in no way optimized for use in counterinsurgency operations like those in Iraq.

We originally planned to buy 722 F-22s to replace the F-15. When the buy was limited, the price went up exponentially. Just like the B-2A, of which 132 were planned, 22 were built. They get expensive when you only buy a few.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Add in that (1) the military budget isn't growing apace with other parts of the government (2) there are needs in other services that get far more attention and cry for immediate remedy (IEDs, body armor, etc), and (3) we live in a world in which it is difficult for the USAF to point to an airpower threat that existing systems can't handle. Taken together, they mean the F22 is a tough sell in Washington.

Whether or not it is wise is another question altogether. We shouldn't confuse wisdom and politics.

 

The problem is that some people, including, unfortunately, William Gates, believe that 3 F-35's can satisfactorily replace 1 F-22. That simply isn't the case. The aircraft were designed for different roles and were designed to work together, as a team, much as the F-15 and F-16 have for a generation. We need certain quantities of both, not one instead of the other.

Also some people don't realize that the F-35 is not as stealthy as the F-22; one look at the conventional exhaust nozzle should convince you of that. (The thrust-vectoring paddles in the F-22's exhaust also help its stealth characteristics.) I have read that the only U.S. aircraft, present or future, that can safely operate in areas guarded by Russia's latest SA-20 surface-to-air missile is the F-22; not even the B-2 or F-35 can operate there. I cannot confirm this, but if true it should be a significant consideration.

The bottom line is that, without the air dominance that the F-22 can obtain, all our other land and air assets are vulnerable. Sacrificing sufficient F-22 production may sacrifice significant American lives, and our independence (remember today's date!), in the future.

 

Jim- Unfortunately all true. You will never get any comments on low observables numbers from anybody who actually knows any. The YF-22 did beat out the YF-23 for the ATF contract, even though the YF-23 had superior low observables technology. That does not help in a knife-fight, however, and the YF-22 was better there. Aircraft are always a compromise.

Less than 200 F-22As are insufficient for USAF's and America's needs. Gates has no vision. He fights the last war, a strategy almost guaranteed to get your rear end kicked in the next war.

Obama is now recognized as a weak sister by most foreign governments, except the fawning "old Europe" countries. He has no clue on foreign relations or defense. We will pay for that.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

If it helps, the letter that went to then-President-elect Obama from the Senate supporting further F-22 production had strong bipartisan support; among the signatures of Democrats that I recognized were Kennedy, Kerry, Murray and Feinstein. The one opponent I cannot understand is John McCain. Here is a Republican, a former military pilot and a man who should clearly know better; his opposition is puzzling and unfortunate. I hope the Arizonans who read this thread bombard his office with letters protesting his stance.

 

Jim- Lockheed-Martin made sure nearly every state had a role in building the F-22A, just like Boeing did for the C-17. Do not understand McCain, either. John Glenn was another famous ex-fighter pilot (among other things) who rarely supported the services. Who knows?

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

USAF will soon become a hollow force. The average age of airplanes is as follows: F-16C/D 17.3, F-15C/D 24.7, F-15E 16.5, and the A-10 is 26.6 years old. With the reserves (a key huge part of tactical airpower), it is even worse. Air Guard units, have little hope of obtaining any tactical airplanes. Some of these Air Guard units, have flown fighters from the 1920's and 30's !!


Terry, USAF will never get anywhere near approx 1,763 F-35's - the planned buy. They will be lucky, if they get 750 airplanes. The F-35 buy, will soon be cut - along with a huge chunk or all of the 2018 bomber. Like Carter, BHO will allow the tactical forces to wither away.

Gates wants USAF, to commission a bunch of geeks with little watches and thick glasses, to fly drones. The drones are effective against insurgents, due to the ability to remain on station. In a long tactical conflict with low tech adversaries, the drones are quite useful.




I am more interested in the early jets. No HUD, AESA, HOTAS, Stealth, velcro, BVR, and fly-by-wire etc... Those were the days !!

Here is a wonderful pic, of a "S/H" F-84B, from Dow AFB Maine - 14th F.G. - circa 1948.
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Ralph- You are unfortunately probably correct about the F-35. Foreign sales will likely exceed US sales. In 1991 when I left RAF Lakenheath, we had at least 5 fighter bases in the UK (RAFs Lakenheath, Upper Heyford, Alconbury, Woodbridge, Bentwaters) and at least six in Europe (ABs Spangdahlem, Hahn, Bitburg, Zweibrucken, Soesterberg, Torrejon) and I probably missed a couple. We now have one in the UK, one in Germany, and one in Italy. Not much better here in the States. Five Air National Guard fighter groups are being shut down in the next year because we have no aircraft for them, and will not have any for a decade or more, maybe never.

Got to find some way to pay for all the entitlement programs, I guess.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Great shot of a pretty airplane, but strictly speaking, at the time of the photo it still would have been a P-84B!

 

You are correct.

Most likely, it is waiting to be painted with the F.

 

Ralph, Jim- The F-84B was the last fighter in which my father was qualified. The standard story was if you built a runway that went around the world, Republic would build an aircraft that would use every inch of it. Dad told a story about he and his mechanic rigging up a bag of dirt in the front landing gear well in front of the nose tire with a pull cord in the cockpit to release the dirt. The theory was you would trick the airplane into thinking it had run out of runway and it would finally take off. I think he was kidding, but am not sure.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

I'm hoping that the DoD has other plans for overcoming S-300 and S-400 air defense systems, or some black UCAV tech in the pipeline that will obsolete aspects of the F-22. I keep telling myself that there is something we don't know about the decision to cut back production of the F-22. I read a few defense blogs and people are really split on whether or not to keep production of the F-22 going. In reality, China and Russia are the only two countries that we'd realistically need large numbers of F-22s to fight within the next 20+ years ( which I'm not saying we shouldn't prepare for that possibility ). None of our other potential enemies have the money to buy large numbers of 4+ and 5th gen aircraft and advanced air defense systems in large quantities. Even if Russia sells the S-400 to Iran, how many missiles can they afford? 50? 100? Certainly not enough to pose a significant long term threat. I think we could find creative ways to get them to expend those without risking any of our pilots (drones, decoys, cruise missiles, etc). It's a tough choice, but I am on the side of more F-22s.