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B17 crashes in Connecticut

Discussion in 'AviatorChat.com' started by GuyIncognito, Oct 2, 2019.

  1. BJK

    BJK Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2014
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    'Theories' seem to be focusing on wet/damp/moisture in (on?) magneto's. How the hell do these engines run in the rain? and why couldn't the magneto's be water/moisture proofed?
    Of course they had to deal with this during WWII and the last 75+ years. Any experts out there that educate me on this?
     
  2. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    Comments that I read claimed that the 100 hr inspection was delayed by 670 hrs.
     
  3. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    They hit a lot of stuff coming in short of the runway. I wonder what made it veer right so abruptly? I guess that's what they're trying to figure out?

    Anyone see the film of the landing?
     
  4. Bob Parks

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    I don't remember that this was a big problem. In bad weather, winter, or long down times the engines nacelles were covered with a fitted tarp. I have a sense that maintenance habits have changed over the years and during the war, the airplanes were running more with less down time and there was always 4 or 5 mechanics tending to them. Early morning was filled with the sound of engines starting and then the roar of run-ups. This wet mag thing is new to me but I'm not an experienced B-17 or B-24 driver.
     
  5. jcurry

    jcurry F1 World Champ
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    Possibly moisture condensation after shutting down the evening before, especially if humid.

    I would venture this may not be that unusual, and that they could have noticed some roughness during run-up. Also not unusual to think it will clear up when at higher power settings than what is used for run-up. Pilots sometimes will extend run-up or increase power during run-up to try to clear roughness, although this is often associated with fouled plugs.
     
  6. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    They hit an ILS installation and that is what threw them off centerline. Then they hit something basically immovable.
     
  7. Korr

    Korr F1 World Champ
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    Why are people so willing to break basic rules of aviation safety?
     
  8. Bob Parks

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    The comments were that it was an ongoing incremental 100hr inspection.
     
  9. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    I re-read one of the reports....

    Said that the 100 hour inspection on the #4 was delayed by 160 hours.

    I'm still wondering about the recommended time between major overhaul on the Cyclone.... It was at 870 hours since. The other 3 were apparently recently overhauled.
     
  10. INRange

    INRange F1 Rookie
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    Allegedly.....#1,2 &3 had "zero hours" on them from a recent overhaul. #4 apparently had 870 but I'm not sure that by itself was the only problem that day. Investigators found the #3 prop to have one blade feathered....which doesn't make sense.

    The only reference I found stated that a Wright Cyclone engine TBO was 1200 hours. The estimated cost for a single engine overhaul was $40,000.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  11. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Did they loose 1 engine or 4. If one engine its shoudl not have beena problem, no bomb load, less fuel, prob less armour the plane would have been relatively light. Lots iof B17s made it back from Germany on 3 engines.
     
  12. Bob Parks

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    From what I have heard, No. 4 was dead, No. 3 was almost dead, and No. 2 was having problems. Still hearsay, I guess.
     
  13. technom3

    technom3 F1 Rookie
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    I believe this is heresay at this point.
     
  14. INRange

    INRange F1 Rookie
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    An old line mechanic posted that every hour that a B-17 flew required 10 hours of effort on the engines. He said it was a bunch of little things that made them run right or poorly.

    These are the only guys I know that are still in the radial engine business. Looks like an interesting place to visit.

    http://andersonaeromotive.net/photo-gallery-of-anderson-aeromotive/anderson-aeromotive-radial-engine-overhaul-facility/
     
  15. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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    FAA pulls Collings Foundation's permit (technically, an exemption) that allows them to fly passengers. The regulators cite a culture that did not emphasize safety. If the facts presented in the document are accurate, these guys may be looking at manslaughter and will certainly be destroyed in the lawsuits.

    https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=FAA-2001-11089-1673
     

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  16. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    So is this the end of B17s flying for passenger use? I crawled aboard an active one, Sentimental Journey, in Mesa Arizona last December and decided I had gotten a bit too immobile to think about a ride in one. Going front to back looked like a no go so I went in from both ends instead.
     
  17. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    That's not what the post said... it's the (temporary, at least) end of Collings flying pax.
    There are 7 or 8 others still flying.

    I've heard that, Evergreen and Confederate AF at least, are pretty rigorous on maintenance.
     
  18. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    I'm just asking because the pilot in this case supposedly had the most experience of anyone in the world on a B17. I had also heard that he was in charge of the maintenance. That was the reporting at the time.
    If so why would someone that experienced be this negligent?
    Given the amount of maintenance required for these very old and complex machines I just wonder if there will be a push to stop allowing passengers?
     
  19. SAT4RE

    SAT4RE Formula Junior

    Dec 5, 2003
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    I'm a member of the Commemorative (formerly Confederate) Air Force, specifically the B-29/24 Squadron. I can tell you that our maintenance is absolutely top notch, with most of our maintenance team being current and former military and airline professionals. The maintenance and flight operations are fully professional.
     
  20. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    That's good to hear. They take care of FIFI which is another plane I might like to try a ride in. I'm not sure the ride is nearly as interesting though unless you get the bombardier seat?
     
  21. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    Oops.... old habit, Commemorative, not Confederate. (Post 92 above.)
    I knew them as the latter for decades... Harlingen, Texas.

    They changed their name and moved to Midland, then to Dallas.
     
  22. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Well I do believe the Confederates had some hot air observation balloons during the civil war ... :p

    Nope ... Yankee balloons ... sorry.
     
  23. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    And I did just that, ride in the bomb aimer's position in FIFI when it was at the 50th Anniversary Celebration of the B-29. The late Tom Cloyd told me to quickly board because there was an empty seat. At the time, I was in charge of ramp ops and I took the invitation. I witnessed the battle between the pilot and flight engineer to determine cowl flap position; one to keep the engines cool and one to lower drag. They both won but the engines did get too hot on the wait for TO clearance . Once in the air , the airplane had a P-51 escort that flew within feet off the right side, "Ho Hun" stuck right with us during the flight and flyby. The airplane was steady as brick in cruise but Tom Cloyd was in a constant battle with the controls when it was dirty. The view was great during approach and landing. One of my best flight experiences and it completed the list of WW2 airplanes in which I have flown or flew. AT-7, C-60, B-34, C-47, AT-6, BT-13, PT-13, PT-17, PT-19, PT-26, PT-22, B-17, B-24, B-25, B-29, and P-51. I can't remember the number of the Timm, PT-21 maybe, but I flew that one too.
     
    tritone, Tcar and staatsof like this.
  24. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #99 Rifledriver, Mar 26, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
    They are reasonably well sealed but that is a blessing and a curse. Water in the right circumstances can get in anything. When you seal it it just stays in. At start up you may not even notice it depending on its mounting orientation and I do not recall that on those motors. Problem is when things get hot and the water vaporizes. Then it all goes bad and that sort of describes the situation here...if it was a single engine aircraft. Losing power in 2, possibly 3 engines from mag issues, engines with redundant mags??? Sorry, that dog don't hunt. This guy sounded like a dialed in pilot, I'd think at first sign of trouble he'd try switching mags on off while still a single engine issue. Or, hes light, just feather it. 3 engines in a light B17? So what? Don't know if he had an experienced copilot or not that could share the work load effectively when things started to go bad. If someone had just stupidly steam cleaned all 4 engines possibly but we would know about that by now.

    I am having real trouble with this being an engine mechanical issue. Fuel maybe.
     

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