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B17 crashes in Connecticut

Discussion in 'AviatorChat.com' started by GuyIncognito, Oct 2, 2019.

  1. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Brian Crall
    #126 Rifledriver, Mar 28, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2020
    If the stories are true about the condition of the engines it shows an attitude that should be put out of business.

    Unless the FAA is lying about it that thing wasn't airworthy nor has it been for who knows how long? I'll wait for the final reports but if it supports what has already been said I will have zero sympathy.

    I have heard a little too much of this in Warbirds. I get it, they are real expensive to keep airborne but if you can't afford to do it right make it a static display.
     
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  3. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    Nov 29, 2003
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    This thread has brought back the 50th B-17 Anniversary celebration and the embarrassing incident when the big B-17 flyby was scheduled. The Tallichet B-17 was one of four that could attend the show and it wouldn't have won any trophies anywhere. When they cranked it up, or tried to, it put-on a flaming display of banging, backfiring, and barfing that shut it down. Bad mags were only part of the problems with the airplane and it was scratched it from the flyby. The rest of the day was spent in a frantic overhaul of its mags. If I remember, we also rebuilt one brake assembly. The Boeing shop put on a spectacular show to get it all done. I would not have flown on the airplane after looking it over.
     
  4. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Brian Crall
    Those mags were not sabotaged by elves the night before. Someone a lot dumber than me flew it there with those pieces of garbage.
     
  5. Eric_H

    Eric_H Rookie

    Apr 24, 2020
    18
    I just caught up and found this thread... I was on the 909 a few years ago. It was an honor. However I had not read the results of the crash investigation. I remember digging just a few months ago and didn't find anything. Now I read this thread and :(

    My flight
     
  6. BJK

    BJK Formula 3

    Jul 18, 2014
    2,239
    CT
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  8. BJK

    BJK Formula 3

    Jul 18, 2014
    2,239
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    NTSB Factual Report B-17G Crash 'Nine-O-Nine' Part I -16 Dec 2020

    Blancolirio



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  9. BJK

    BJK Formula 3

    Jul 18, 2014
    2,239
    CT
    WouldaCouldaShoulda
    Watch at 26:15 - dang, why didn't they choose the other runway first. :( Closer and fewer turns. (if they had decided and set up for it, of course)
    .
     
  10. staatsof

    staatsof Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Why would Youtube have demonetized his content?
    Thanks for posting this. ​
     
  11. staatsof

    staatsof Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    So if I have this right there's only one B17 qualified pilot aboard on these sort of flights? And he's in his 70's.
     
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  13. BJK

    BJK Formula 3

    Jul 18, 2014
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    NTSB Report B-17G Crash 'Nine-O-Nine' Part II - 18 Dec 2020



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  14. BJK

    BJK Formula 3

    Jul 18, 2014
    2,239
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    #136 BJK, Feb 1, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2021
    Great discussion with veteran pilot Scott Perdue



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  15. BJK

    BJK Formula 3

    Jul 18, 2014
    2,239
    CT
  16. BJK

    BJK Formula 3

    Jul 18, 2014
    2,239
    CT
    NTSB Final Report B-17G "Nine-O-Nine"

    Nothing new, but, ...
    Jump to 3:30 for some 'overall' conclusions.



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  17. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Brian Crall
    Smartest analysis I have seen.
     
  18. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Sorry he's dead but if he was the best B17 guy alive maybe we should ground them all. That plane was criminally deficient in maintenance and it is impossible to believe he was unaware of that fact. It should never have been allowed to pull chocks. Seen too much of that in big old historic recips. There seems to be some illogical feeling the military maintenance was overdone and we can blow it off because we are not working them hard. A good example is those mags. Just stupid. It was no accident, it was preordained.
     
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  19. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    I recall that all the time that I was in the USAAF I can't think of a time that there was any problem getting an engine started even in frigid temps. The maintenance hangar was always full and busy where ever I was stationed and at Hondo, we ran the airplanes through PLM, "Production Line Maintenance, and always found a lot of things that could have caused problems. I can remember a few in flight engine failures on B-17 and AT-7 aircraft but the big winner was the B-29 with the B-26 second.
     
  20. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    I know quite a few in that world. A lot of warbirds I have laid eyes on I'd never get in. Sorry but in that community too many that are maintained like that B17. I had a friend who ran a well known mag shop and he said it was pretty scary the stuff he had sent to the shop. Magnetos are pretty Victorian technology anyway. I'd sure not be cutting corners on them. Big difference between the USAAF in 1944 and warbirds now. Too many years in the Ferrari business has hammered home the difference in regular usage and the reliability that goes with it and very sporadic use.
     
  21. QtrItalian

    QtrItalian Karting

    Jan 22, 2021
    91
    ...official 24 page final report here: https://go.usa.gov/xHbMw

    I imagine the pilot didn't document using the safety wire on the P-lead to engine 4's magneto in the maintenance log - but if he did at least he'd know/remember to go back and install the correct clip. Nonetheless only one of many errors....A tear-down of engine 1 and 2 wasn't done to our knowledge but it would be interesting to see if detonation, improper gaps and fouled plugs existed on the left side too....
     
  22. BJK

    BJK Formula 3

    Jul 18, 2014
    2,239
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    At least not with paying passengers who entrusted their well-being with the experts/professionals of the operation. (as is the case with all pilots)
    .
     
  23. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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    Nov 26, 2001
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    If that pilot/mechanic had survived, he should have been charged with manslaughter. I'll be stunned if the Collings Foundation survives this report.

    I've flown on their B-25. I trusted their mechanics and pilots. Perhaps I should not have.
     
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  24. QtrItalian

    QtrItalian Karting

    Jan 22, 2021
    91
    I agree. I'm from the area. The attorneys in the northeast are going to crucify Collings. I ready every page of the initial and final NTSB and FAA reports, watched the above videos, etc. If I remember everyone on-board but two had burn injuries. Nothing like suffocating/burning to death - or worse surviving. How many $$$ will be awarded for that suffering?
    Pinkstein [sic] attested that Collings and "Mac" treated the B-17 differently; pilots really weren't rotated through that bird unless he was unavailable. That, making him chief mechanic, and the absence of C.R.M. (I know it wasn't required) was a set-up for misdeeds.
    I took my kids on a walk through on "FIFI" 2 years ago. I was really thinking about buying a seat....this somewhat makes one wonder...
     
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  25. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    I flew on FI FI with the late Tom Cloyd and crew and they were tops as far as I was concerned . I helped to restore FIFI when she came to Boeing prior to the 50th anniversary celebration and the airplane was put in good condition. The engines and aircraft systems operated flawlessly.
     
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  26. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    I will always remember the "both feet and both arms" wrestling match that Cloyd had when the the B-29 was dirty and on final. His battle to keep the airplane aligned was a surprise revelation. Conversely, the B-29 flew like it was on a rail when it was at altitude and set up on cruise. His demise was another element in aviation history when he was piloting the CAF Martin B-26 and experienced an engine failure on take off. I will always remember him as a typical and polite gentleman and a good pilot.
     
  27. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    Some more memories about the B-29 anniversary celebration. I had a seat in the bomb aimer's position and I witnessed the crew compatibility , coordination , and skill during our flights. It was a warm summer day at Boeing Field and the B-29 was ordered to hold at the end of the runway for some obscure reason. Not good because engine temperatures were rapidly climbing. Tom told the controller that he had to take off immediately or they would scrub the flight. After some adjustments in the tower we finally made the take off and the duel began between the pilot and flight engineer with keeping the cowl flaps open or closed. A compromise was reached, I guess. On climb out we were joined by P-51 "Ho Hun" that stayed 50 feet away from the right side AND I DIDN'T HAVE MY CAMERA! A lot of ex-B-29 crew members were on the ramp every day and we got to meet a lot of them. One little guy joined with us and told us about his being stationed "on an island in the Pacific and they had a lot of those F -1 F-1's there." We had a great four day experience in the of summer of 1992, seven years after another great celebration for the 50th birthday of the B-17.
     
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