Bad PPI - looking for opinions

I would get an attorney and nail him to the wall.

 

I'm sorry, I don't see this as a big issue. A PPI is just somebody doing a "once over".....If you feel that Matt owes you anything, I'd say he should refund the 500.00 that you paid him for the PPI. He certainly shouldn't have to buy the car from you. That sounds ridiculous.

But maybe he'll give you back the PPI money that you paid him.

 

Yuck - certainly an unpleasant situation.

Some mechanics now REFUSE to do PPIs since this sort of thing happens.

I'm guessing one of the following happened:
(A) Matt ****ed up big time. Maybe he was having a really bad day that day. Maybe he had too much work that day. He screwed the pooch.
(B) Matt had one of his junior people take care of it and that guy screwed the pooch. I've seen shops where all the techs weren't of the same stellar caliber.
(C) The prior seller doctored the car such that Matt couldn't find some of these things. If the car was cleaned meticulously that morning, maybe some of the oil leaks wouldn't have shown up for 50 miles or a day or two? Maybe that seller did some nasty stuff to hide the problems.
(D) All of these things developed during your ownership. It's not impossible. It does seem improbable though.

$500 is real money. Even if Matt charges $125/hour that's still four hours - half of a day to spend poking around the car. That's a lot of time.

Two questions for you:

(1) Did you due your due diligence on the seller? Were they reputable folks? I personally stay away from sellers I can't get good beads on - there are plenty of folks out there dealing crap-condition exotics.

(2) Did you get all the service records before you bought and review them and have Matt review them? Did you talk to the mechanics who had worked on the car before to verify the records you had were relatively complete? If the car was this messed up, it seems unlikely (not impossible, but improbable) that it was 100% stellar for years on end and then fell apart the month before you bought it.

As to matt-sters proposed solution, I have no clue what the court system will think about this, but I think you're gonna have a tough time forcing Matt to pay for much if any of this. At best I imagine his legal liability is to return your $500 PPI fee. You bought a decades-old, known-high-maintenance, used car with miles on it.

Another solution might be to go back to the folks who sold it to you, but I imagine there was some crisp paperwork about their limitation of liability.

Good luck with it. Very unpleasant situation.

Doody

 

What kind of hourly rate is Matt charging for this "once over". Even if it was a ridiculous $100/hr, I think a five hour inspection should have been more thorough.

G

 

Perhaps (and ONLY perhaps) though. I know plenty of shops that still have had bad auras put on them even though they "did the right thing" with an unhappy customer. Including some shops that went WAY above and beyond the call of duty.

Plus, it sounds like this is well into five figures - at some point he ends up going out of business if he does stuff like this.

Would you be willing to assume $12K to $15K in liability for every $500 inspection you did? It just doesn't make sense.

BTW - I've had a number of PPIs done, and never once did anybody make me sign anything with a specific limitation of liability - I think these guys really should do this - and talk about it with their customers. It sure would suck if all shops just stopped doing PPIs, wouldn't it?

Doody.

 

Agreed.

The value of the PPI is having someone you really trust examine the car so that you don't judge with emotion, but instead with knowledge and facts. Your PPI mechanic has no liability, nor do “experts” advising buyers about the authenticity of a multi-million dollar vintage Ferrari racecars. Caveat emptor…sorry. I know this really hurts, and you want to blame someone, but you need to find someone you really can trust next time.

 

Just a thought -- what if Carl is wrong or exaggerating or has some hidden agenda? Have you verified that the bushings are indeed missing, that the tires are shot, etc?

RE: the aluminum coolant hose: that can actually wear very rapidly once it's in contact with the tank strap, it's possible that it wasn't an issue at the time of your PPI.

Frankly, I don't think you have any recourse against Matt, at the absolute worst he might have to refund the cost of the PPI.

 

At most I feel Matt should pay back the $500. Even that is almost asking too much. Maybe he would split it with you at $250. To me I don't think PPIs are money well spent. I have said this on the chat for years. Sometimes they are but most of the time they miss items and the money spent could have repaired most of the missed problems. I always look over my own cars. Anyway, a PPI is not a guarantee on the car at all. First off you are buying a car that is over 20 years old. Second even the best techs miss some items. Third, everyones opinion (especially in the mechanical world of cars) is different. Read the tech section sometime to see a wide variety on opinions. Some people feel little things are major and others don't worry about them. No matter what you purchased a used 20 year old car. Did you inspect it yourself in person? I would think you would have. So, I agree that Matt shouldn't have missed some of these items but all a PPI really is, is just some techs opinion on a car not a warranty or the like. Just an opinion. If you really wanted a strong PPI you should technically get at least 3 opinions of the car. I think you should just ask for your $500 back and started to repair the car or just disclose the problems to the potential buyer and sell it. So now you ask what was the point of the PPI? That is exactly what I have been saying for years. Techs can't predict when parts are going to break but most over look obvious things. A PPI is an easy meal IMO for them.

 

What's the total?

If, say, we're talking $9K for example, you might consider splitting it three ways.

I would think that if you and the buyer came up with 2/3 then Matt(?) might do the repairs as good will. I would think they would have to be done at his shop. You said he was a trusted guy. Maybe you should post his name and others might step forward with their own issues.

I don't think a refund of a PPI is a fair resolution, nor do I think this mechanic should cover all the expense. By you own admission, several items were discussed with you and you chose not to repair. You would have had to pay at some point.

 

It seems that the truth about the real condition of this car lies somewhere between Matt's and Carl's evaluation. Yea, you can have this and that done, but is it really necessary considering the age of the vehicle?(btw, I find mechanics love to play a blame game especially if they can pick up some more work ) This is just another F-horror story and will probably end up being a hard lesson. If you don't want to go to the expense of making the car right, it will probably have to be reflected in the price. One other option is to auction the car off as is and let someone else deal with it. That way you can move on and focus your energy somewhere else. Good luck

 

I think a PPI is a good idea........ It seemed to pick up many items in this case, as an example. I think Ferrari or Club should come up with a std. checklist to go over all items just like when you pre-flight a plane. I think the problem is that a PPI is just a nice way to say "once over" for some mechanics. We should try and get this standardized. It would help us as well as the mechanic.

A state inspection would have caught most of these items.

 

i have bought 3 Ferrari's with no PPI, sight unseen. and had NO PROBLEMS. i have offered to schedule a PPI on either my GTB or the Dino, to any buyer at thier expense to help with the purchase.
to be honest, if you cant troubleshoot and or repair a 30 year carb Ferrari, then you have no damn business owning one in the first place.

ppi's to me are for the crybaby tire kicker types who want to know why the airconditioning doesnt work in a 30 year old car, and have no understanding of what a "toy" car should be. to me they are a weekend only, part time cruiser should not be expected or required to go 150mph with the a/c on. if a buyer wants such a car, they should not be looking at a old carb ferrari.

my rules:
1) dont finance and old exotic. pay cash or stay out of the game.
2) fix it if its a safety issue. a radio or airconditioner is not critical to the cars function. fresh fuel lines will keep you alive, new cooling hoses will keep you on the road, not on the side of it. my point is , you can do TOO MUCH to an old car ( or aircraft. ) over restoration sucks.
3) the use of the vehicle determines what is important. Mike328 did a bunch of stuff to my old 308gts as far as lights and electrical go. guess what, i never drove the car at night ( for the most part) so it didnt matter that everything was new.

i can see a disagreement over paying $500.00 and finding all of this stuff wrong now. but its tough titty as they say as its an "AS IS WHERE IS " old car. the mechanic that did the inspection may have had different criteria for what is serviceable and safe compared to the new PPI mechanic.

i dont want a 30 year old anything that is all new, again. i like old stuff, because its old. i think some folks just " want a pretty ferrari" and dont know or care how a early carb car drives compared to a late carb 308.


sorry to see the thread starter is banned. sorry they had a bad situation. glad it wasnt me on either side.

sometimes its best to walk away, if you arent ready to play.

 

oh yea, VELOSTRADA has a nice buyers check list.

 

i am missing something...what is the impetus for thread starter "banned"?

 

I'm guessing it's due to the duplicate account.

 

Big one and I agree, that is why I am not playing the game right now, finance your daily driver, toys are cash. I could finance any Ferrari I want within reason, but its a toy and rules are rules. Soon, very soon

Back to the subject, another thought is that rubber once it starts to go can go very quickly. On the first PPI that was done early last year, the rubber might have been there, hard as a rock and brittle but still there and visible, a few hundred miles later, its metal to metal as the brittle rubber breaks up, it wont take long once its starts.

Same with the Axle boot, its a rubber part that sat completely unused for a year and half, I don't consider 2,000 miles in 18months used at all, so it got brittle with age and you drove it, it cracked and is now spitting grease.

Tires, well they get old just sitting, personally I have seen brand new 10 year old tires that were shot and most people claim 5 to 7 years is the safe limit, I think that is short but its common belief.

They don't tell you that you will have problems with Garage Queens for the fun of saying it, its true, they age wether you use them or not.

Oil leaks are different story, they will show up on Garage Queens too but you had said they existed on the first PPI, so I assume they have just gotten worse and I am not sure its Matt's fault at all.

Basically, you have a garage queen that a mechanic is looking at assuming it will become a driver and he is looking at all the typical garage queen problems, sorry if that sounds harsh but its the way I read it on your post. You are looking a roughly 8k maintenance for a year and half's ownership, its high but not unheard on these cars, too bad you didn't drive it so it would hurt less to pay up.

Again, sorry if I sound harsh, not trying to be, just realistic from MY point of view. Perhaps Matt would be willing to pay up the 500 just to keep you quiet and not harm his reputation but I don't think he is liable for it after a year and half (you mentioned you purchased the car early last year, that is where I get my time frame from). The new guy well, he is being thorough maybe he knows the new owner wants a driver.

Mike
p.s. 5k for bushings ? I am in the wrong business. And by the way, if it went to court, its a safe bet Matt would use my reasoning above to fight you about the brittle rubber.

 

All,

PPIouch is me. I used a false account (per my original post as PPIouch) as the original PPI mechanic is a well known and respected mechanic on Fchat. I am sure the account was banned because the mods can not allow people to post under seperate names. No complaints there. The local PPI was done by Ferda at Vintage motorcars (Carl=Ferda; Matt=Fchat sponsor).

Thank you for all opinions (even then ones that involved a minor hammering of my balls). I have also been on the phone with several people I know and their opinions vary but are in line with the above posts.

I have no doubt the mechanic I used on my PPI is competent. I also have no doubt that on the items I listed he made a mistake. If he tells me "tough sh-t I did my best" go away, I will likely just shut up and break out the wrenches (I can do a lot of the work - I will not try to replace all the seals though - I know my skill level and will not take a risk to save money and possibly cause a safety issue.)

For the record, I did not do the PPI to see why the A/C did not work. I did the PPI to find major issues especially ones like ALL the front suspension bushings being shot and the car being a safety issue to drive.

My guess is I will either sell the car to someone I know is already interested in fixing all issues and moving on or doing the work myself. I have talked with one particular person who knows his stuff (legally and Ferrari wise) and his opinion is I should just move on.

One last point, you people making financial inferences need to go get a life. You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. If I want to go fully finance a Ferrari at 6% so you do not have to drop ~25-65k from your investment account which makes 20-26% a year for the last 8 years that is the correct call. Now if someone finances a Ferrari with no backup I agree that this is not a good idea but it is their call. At least it is secured debt. That is their business, not mine or yours.

-Mike

PS: The real creaker here is that Ricrain's Ferrari was still kind of on the market...this has totally blown my chance to get his car in time. Another sale is now concluded. Man his car looks nice. I am nolonger looking for a 348.

 

I had a similar one in hand...also, the PPI had done covered it all.

 

(I was making this post when I discovered PPIouch was banned)

Doody,

I had the seller fax me all the docs. Car is well documented. I checked them all. FoAtlanta did most of the work. I followed the car for about a year. I spoke with the seller often. I had a good feel for him. I worked him over hard on the things James found. Biggest issue was very obvious and I fixed it myself.

We knew the car had been cleaned (but not recently). The outside was dusty as it was in a large gargage. It was leaking when we looked at it. The places Matt missed were hard to find. Carl found them in under 2 hours. Matt spent about 4 hours on it. He never pulled the front wheels. Matt even told me he knew it had been steam cleaned.

Carl told me the bushings were like this when I bought it. There is more then 2000 miles in wear on the exposed sufaces. The tires were bad for a while.

Thank you for your time.

 

thanks for the clarifn, till...for i am less than distinct w/ f-chat protocols.

 

FYI as the hours pass by and I talk to more people I am cooling off more. I am pretty sure Matt buying my car is not a viable option

For the record, I am very glad my buyer (Sherpa23) did the PPI and all of this was found. I would have been in far worse shape if this all came up after the sale. I am a stand up guy and would have made things right. Since he is way the heck away in Colorado I would not have been able to do any of the work myself and some mechanic would have made a mint off of me.

Some say PPIs are worthless. I disagree. The PPI done by Ferda saved Sherpa23 a ton of anguish and saved me a ton of face. Just be aware that the PPI is worth the paper it is written on plus whatever the mechanic feels his word is worth. The mechanic is probably legally not responsible unless you have a "dream team" of lawyers. Then the only people who are happy are the lawyers.

-Mike

 

It seems to me that in the absence of a signed contract limiting your rights, a mechanic has some serious potential exposure, depending on the law in your state. (Of course, since Louisiana isn't really a state, and much of its law derives from French Code, that may make it even worse for the mechanic). I am not trying to blackball the mechanic here- I don't know him, and he may be first rate. But, as an analytic step, even if you have no interest in sabre-rattling, I think it worth be worth some time researching the law where you and/or the mechanic are located (both places, if different). You might even be able to do this yourself, without having to engage counsel.
You will then know whose liability it is for failing to discover and disclose defects that can be proven to have existed at the time of the initial PPI.

If I were a mechanic, i would not expose myself to this kind of potential liability without limiting it to the fullest extent possible by contract. Your mechanic may also be insured against this kind of claim, and once you have determined what the law says, you can share that with him, in a nonconfrontational way- perhaps this will be a relatively cheap education for him to use a contract in the future.
I agree that its not appropriate to go nuclear without first taking the time and effort to reach a reasonable accomodation with the mechanic. I agree with your approach not to pillory him here, while you gather facts. Ultimately, I think the mechanic should appreciate your handling of this in a gentlemanly manner, and that should also build good will toward an appropriate resolution.

Of course, if all of the above fails, and the law is on your side, you can hire somebody to ruin his life, but, I only recommend that as a strategy of last resort.
N.B. I checked your location, and it turns out Texas is indeed a state, in fact, it is a state with a deceptive practices statute that is fairly elaborate. Apparently, there is an exemption against claims for faulty services that involve professional advice or judgement, but the statute indicates that the exemption does not apply to situations where the advisor makes a material representation of fact or fails to disclose material facts that otherwise would have prevented the contemplated transaction. Here is a summary of the law that is fairly current. http://www.jtexconsumerlaw.com/V8N2pdf/V8N2deceptive.pdf Note that this should not be construed as legal advice, and that I assume no liability for providing any of the foregoing. Your review of this posting constitutes your acceptance of these terms. In all events, it may be worth your spending a little time digging up some cases interpreting this statute.