BB512i & Emmission Control Devices | FerrariChat

BB512i & Emmission Control Devices

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by UnVinRougeSVP, Jan 10, 2005.

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  1. UnVinRougeSVP

    UnVinRougeSVP Karting

    Jan 27, 2004
    117
    Southeastern PA
    Full Name:
    Ted
    Like many of the other US owners on this board, I have been slowly de-federalizing my BBi back to orignal specs. Gone are the egr valves, carbon canister and approx one mile of associated tubing. The exhaust manifolds were absolutely HACKED by the fly-by-night shop who bastardized this car back in '84 when grafting on the cataylic converters. After a search for a set of unmolested, decent-condition headers for a reasonable price proved impossible, I decided to have my set coverted back.

    The car has two o2 sensors put in the collector tubes just before the cats and wired into one of the wiring harnesses. The first clue that these sensors might be just window-dressing is that both leads are siamesed into the same wire in the loom. From there, I do not know where the single wire goes.

    I know that non-federalized cars did not have o2 sensors and want to eliminate them from my car as well. Can anyone tell me if there was any way to intergrate these into the BBi electrical system to make them function and if I eliminate them, will there be a detrimental impact on the way the injection system works as a result? The dinoplex box blew up a few years ago and the PO had a MSD box wired in, but I am pretty sure the o2 sensors have been there since federalization.

    Thanks
     
  2. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,931
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Adding really functional O2 sensors to a BBi with K-Jet injection would be quite a project. You'd have to "convert" each K-Jet system either by:

    1. adding a frequency valve, the plumbing, plus whatever else is required, etc. to make it a K-Jet with Lambda system (like the later 308QV), or

    2. replace both whole K-Jet systems with KE-Jet with Lambda systems from something like a TR or 412(?).

    You are correct that connecting the outputs from the O2 sensors is not useful nor useable, but if they are the 3-wire kind of O2 sensors then the internal heaters could share some common connections -- are they the cheaper single-wire only O2 sensors or the 3-wire O2 sensors with the internal heater? It doesn't hurt to have O2 sensors mounted in the exhaust stream on a K-Jet system -- you can always manually measure the O2 sensor outputs with a multi-meter or oscilloscope as a another tool for guesstimating the A/F ratio in each bank under various conditions.
     
  3. spider348

    spider348 Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    1,273
    MA
    Full Name:
    John
    My former 1986 TR with K-Jetronic had 02 sensors that appeared to function. If I recall correctly the sensors were wired to a “black” box located under the driver’s(?) seat, installed by the conversion company. Again if I recall correctly the box was then wired to the cold start valve(?). This is 4 years ago so I could be completely wrong. The reason I believe they functioned is attending a local auto show at the Crane Estate I was parked in a converted cow pasture. Upon leaving a low cut bush disconnected 1 of the 02 wires. The TR ran like crap, wet fouled a couple of plugs on the side disconnected. Repaired the 02 sensor, installed new plugs and the TR ran fine. Also the TR passed MA emissions testing 2 years with flying colors.
    My beautiful Euro headers were also mangled at conversion. All the tubes were cut approximately 2” from the heads, welded into a stainless rectangular collector and then piped into a pair of K car cats. Not very efficient. Purchased a set of Euro TR headers from Butch Hooper and installed a set of hyper flow type cats. Great sound, better performance.
     
  4. UnVinRougeSVP

    UnVinRougeSVP Karting

    Jan 27, 2004
    117
    Southeastern PA
    Full Name:
    Ted
    Thanks, guys.

    The o2 sensors are the one-wire type, so no internal heaters there. Did the TR have K or KE-jetrontic? Sounds like those cars had some sort of sensor wired in from the factory.

    I tried to trace the wire that the sensors hook into and it disappears into what looks like a non-modified loom that heads towards the firewall. I don't want to hack up the wiring any more that it has already been with the MSD box retrofit, but my gut tells me that the sensors, as well as most of the other federalization ancillaries were there soley for some DOT official to check off their presence on his federalization list; whether they actually worked was unintentional. For example, my car had all the hoses for an air pump, but the actual pump was MIA (with no mounts, either). I have seen properly federalized BBi's with an air pump mounted next to the a/c compressor, but there is no evididence that one ever existed on my car. What's more, it looked like the US federalization by the Three Stooges used garden hose for some of the EGR system - the list goes on.......
     
  5. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,931
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    TRs came "stock" in three injection flavors:

    K-Jet (without Lambda) -- early standard (same as your 512BBi)
    KE-Jet (without Lambda) -- later standard
    KE-Jet with Lambda -- all US & later CH

    If you only have single-wire O2 sensors and they are connected together, it can't be functional. There aren't many places to add extra electronics unnoticed, but you might have a look under your seats per John's description.

    I'd classify the mods on John's ex-TR as a somewhat more crude version of #1 (remarkable their using the cold-start injectors as the fuel modulator). One safety feature of the stock "with Lambda" systems is that they can detect bogus or missing O2 signals and default into an open-loop mode so they don't dump extra fuel when things go wrong -- e.g., when John's TR O2 sensor went unplugged, the O2 voltage input to the "black box" drops to "0" so the electronics thinks "lean" and tries to add more fuel to bring up the voltage (but the input to the black box never changes since it's unplugged).

    Side question for you both -- did they try to add any type of catalyst over-temp warning system?
     
  6. spider348

    spider348 Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    1,273
    MA
    Full Name:
    John
    My former Euro TR had no cat over-temp detection system. I do admit this did concern me. Know of more than 1 TR that suffered considerable damage due to cat fires.
    As crude as the system was my TR ran better, stronger and less issues than most of the US spec TR’s I know. As I stated earlier, I do not know how much the system contributed to the cars operation during normal running.
     
  7. UnVinRougeSVP

    UnVinRougeSVP Karting

    Jan 27, 2004
    117
    Southeastern PA
    Full Name:
    Ted

    Just as I suspected .... thanks. I will trace the wire back to see if it ends up anywhere non-stock. The cats on my car have no overtemp warning system that I can tell, at least there are no sensors on the exhaust system other than the soon-to-be-deleted o2 sensors.
     

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