BBC link - How fast is the Red Bull

RB7 is fast, but I have no doubt they will be caught this year. I believe RB is running out of room to improve on what they already have and it's going to take only 1 huge loss sometime later this season that people will figure out RB can bleed, and they will. Once other teams deduce how RB is flexing their front wing so much while still passing testing it's all over for RB. Mclaren is starting to figure it out as their front wing is flexing certainly more than the other teams yet not as much as RB.

That or the Fia will crack down on the issue and tell every team, including RB, that if their front wing flexes as it does during a race they are in violation of the rules stating no flexible structures are permitted.

 

That flexi wing is conjectured to add over a full point of downforce which is good for .700-.800 of a second. Yes, it's that wing and how they have the car built around what the front wing is doing. Take that away and they are right there with Ferrari or below.

 

I think there's more than just .7 to .8 of a second advantage in the bull.

Vettel got on pole by over .8 without any KERS which is .3 to half a second itself. Everyone else didn't just choke on their laps either. Sebastian was heat-cycling his tires in Q2. This guy has a lot of leeway.

That article pointed out that Vettel was *two and a half seconds* ahead after the first lap. While these aren't controlled lap times, that's two and a half seconds with no DRS wing, no KERS, and Hamilton didn't appear to have any huge hiccups chasing him.

Newey is clearly an alien from outer space, or perhaps the antichrist.

 

For me and my armchair and all of it's noteworthyness (haha), I think the jury is still out on KERS regarding its advantage. It's 80bhp extra for 6.7 seconds/lap or don't use KERS and place ballast weight where you want it and have better brake bias. Malaysia will help clear that up quite a lot as it's braking and downforce intensive making KERS more key in several areas.

Regardless, you make a good point regarding Vettel having leeway, but if you compare it to Webber things make more sense. I still don't get how on earth Vettel was that much quicker than Webber as he was never that much quicker than him all of last year. Maybe Vettel is on another planet with RB7 this year. Man I hope not. What a boring year it would be.

 

You're probably right that KERS may not be worth that much. I think it's just a gimmick to appear "green" and all that BS.

But at the same time, when you take a 1:20 or 1:30 lap, take out all of the time for braking, turning when not full throttle, etc, that handful of seconds of 80 more horsepower is more significant. But these guys are flat-out most of the time, it seems.

And the fact that the RB's gain most of their advantage on the high-speed, high-downforce areas lends itself to the flexi front wing being such a huge advantage, as this "fixed" wing that can pass the tests yet still flex would require a lot of force/airflow to actually flex.

Last year Alonso was all over Seb and Mark when it was clear that both the Ferrari and RB was employing a highly flexible front wing before they increased parameters of the test.

 

Whitmarsh is saying a flex of 2 to 3 cm's would count as a second+ a lap easily.

Here's some info on just how the Red Bull is doing this. The nose is flexing or pivoting 3+cm. Here's why and how.

read this regarding non isotropic behaviour of carbon laminates and it addresses the theme of bend-twist coupling obtained via unbalanced lamination

here:
http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~garfinkm/Spar.html

The red bull's front wheels have a lot more negative camber than the Ferrari. Also, I bet they have their front suspension a lot softer than any other team, which lets their wing get closer to the ground and still pass scrutineering. This would also put the outer edge of their wing closer to the ground through a turn.

You can't see it in this pic, but because of this you will notice the RB runs far more rake than any other team as the front wing is knocking so much air higher due to its proximity to the ground. This also means the diffuser is not being as effective.

Mclaren has caught on a bit and their nose is flexing a bit but not nearly as much. Everyone's wings are indeed bending a but, but that's not the issue now is it
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The last 2 pics are massive!

 

Both Newey and Vettel are clearly aliens. Together they can't be stopped.

 

I don't agree, there advantage is not as great as they thought or wanted it to be, interesting those pictures of that front wing flexing, I imagine there are alot of teams engineers busy studying them.

Clearly they have a superb car, but I don't buy this mini KERS system, IMO they can't get it working right.

The facts we know about, Hamilton secured P2 in qualifying without his KERS working.

Hamilton was not totally left behind by Vettel in the race, I'am also sure Hamilton would have been told to go easy as the bottom of his car was hanging off.

 

Agreed. RB is fast but teams are figuring out their secret. Many teams will have a flexing nose shortly or it will be banned and Red Bull won't know what to do as their vehicle design relies on the wing flex so much. RB7 was designed to run a soft front end with tons of rake. Take away the key element in their design and they are exposed!

 

There is no mini-Kers on the RB, just something that the press suspected, although it is a brilliant idea on street tracks. Let's see what happens at traditional circuits-i think we'll see RB still up front but not as much as a gap.

 

we said this all last year. they were fast til the end, albeit less dominant..

 

I highly doubt that it's that simple. Newey's car are a total package. He insisted that the kers system fit into his design and would not compromise. The reverse of what most people do.
It's definitely part of it; but look at their innovation of the exhaust and diffuser as well....

 

but even at the end of the year last year no one knew how they were flexing their wing.

 

From the pics, I don't know if it's an illusion or what, but it appears like it's the front nose itself flexing down and not just the wing.


edit - i see you already said this above

 

Yep, and despite the new designs and winter testing no one has a handle on it yet like RB. Amazing.

 

Ahh thats the point RB did not dispel this rumour in fact probably liked it to keep everyone guessing, just covering up the fact they hadn't got it working right.

My guess is it was damaging the rear tyres so badly they didn't use it.

As it happens the car is so good it was a good call, but I reckon they will need it in Malaysia.

So all in all IMO they have not got a BrawnGP type winning car start advantage.

 

It will be copied or the others will be knocking down the FIA's door asking for a more stiffer test on it.

 

Agree, gap isn't as large as all think and in malaysia RB has said they will have it-or will they?

If RB have wings on fast tracks also then we are in for a long season; gap will shrink but will it be too little too late?

 

They will absolutely need KERS in Malaysia. That track is beastly on every component of the car.


I still don't get what the Fia is waiting for regarding Red Bull's flexing structure. It is in clear violation of the rules, but utterly brilliant engineering work as the weaving methods and fibre-placement angles a structural engineer would need to come up with to have a near linear box structure bend is brilliant.....yet illegal.

Clever fibre orientation coupled with the geometrical design of the wings or other structural components will assure the wings will behave differently under certain loads. As long as the part is not overstressed, it will behave like this forever.
I´m pretty sure RB has not yet mastered full reproduce-ability of these characteristics, and you can quite often see that those wings do not bend equally left and right which would be nearly impossible to do considering this is fibre we are talking about. The tolerances are probably somewhat different from part to part, which is EXACTLY why WEBBO did not have the same lap time as Vetell...If there is so much to be found in lap time with a special characteristic you can preselect components in the workshop (which I am absolutely sure they did) and let wonderboy (Vettel) look better than he should.

How's that for leveling things.

 

Indeed you may be quite correct, it's what makes F1 really interesting to me.

 

Indeed it does, but why the Fia is not insisting a plank be immediately placed under their nose to prevent flexing structures is beyond me as it is incredible apparent they are in violation. Perhaps it's due to their post-race testing which is inadequate.

 

I have read a while back, I may have to dig around to see where, that the FIA were looking at a more stringent test for this area, upward and downward forces.