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BBi clutch re and re

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by Newman, Jul 14, 2009.

  1. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    #1 Newman, Jul 14, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Im removing the clutch on my BBi this week after work as time permits. I need to have a look at it and decide if I need to remove the 1MM shims as per WSM or replace. I have no vibration from it just some detected slip under full throttle with hard shifts, happened sunday after I set up the timing and took it out for a hard run in preparation to give David his lumps this summer when I come down to visit for the boxer throwdown.
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  3. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #2 Rifledriver, Jul 14, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2009
    If you get to them early they can be reshimmed. The pressure plate throw loses clamping pressure quite a bit before the discs are worn out. I would try and just remove the shims, bolt it back together and see how the pressure plate fingers look. They need to be a little convex or it will go far enough over center that centrifugal force will prevent it from returning at high RPM. I have reshiimed many BB and TR clutches very successfully and had the cars get another 30-40% more clutch life but most people in anticipation of a big bill drive it until the clutch looks like space shuttle tile and when that happens shimming is a lot too late.

    Remember when it goes back together the "H" mark on the discs are the heavy spot and need to go 180 from each other.
     
  4. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    #3 Newman, Jul 14, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thanks for the input, especially the balance reference. I was happy to see the 1MM shims still in place through the inspection hole. I hope they dont look like the shuttle tiles LMAO! I doubt they will I would rather nip it in the bud than avoid the inevitable and drive it.

    The Ansa sport exhaust was a bit of a pain to get out then the heat shield wasnt fun either. I noticed when I bought the car that the airbox mounts were bent then bent back down. I assumed that was for the EO but it turns out that sheild is a royal pain with the mounts hanging over it. I held my tongue in the right place and finally got it out without bending anything. Taking the transfer gear cover off or dropping the headers out then sliding the shield out the bottom would make for a straight forward in-out but the headers are no treat either. Ill send the mufflers out to be refinished and ill detail the headers while im there among other things.

    The 2 can ansa sport system places the lower muffler can very close to the bumper so I added a foil wrapped piece of insulation to the inside a couple of years ago after a bumper repaint - it was blistered when I got the car. It gets sandwiched between the rear bumper frame and the bumper itself. No more paint damage since then.

    I lost my 10mm wrench somewhere so a tool kit I had kicking around donated a wrench for the cause.

    Hey how do my magnecor custom home-made wires look? Look OEM dont they!
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  5. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    #4 Newman, Jul 19, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Had a busy week so I didnt touch the car other than drop the muffler cans off at the powder coaters then went away for the weekend to the cottage. Ansa is sending me new decals for the tips and the correct red pinstriping to separate the black from the chrome. The mufflers should look like new and man are they heavy! Im tempted to fab up a glass pack system and shelf the hard-to-get (impossible to get) ansa stuff. Ansa told me the last time they had stock was 96! They will make more if I order a hundred pairs, let me think about that......

    I took some unique shots as I went along taking the bellhousing off. Its quite easy really once the mufflers are off. I was surprised at how close the coolant tank comes to the inside of the clamshell. Took some other shots for a different perspective on how everything is packaged and maybe how a fly might see it if one was just hanging out inside the engine bay.

    I dont have my metric micrometer here so ill take the clutch assy to work and measure the disc and middle plate but since it had the shims and the discs dont look like the space shuttle tiles after re-entry I think were good to go until I do the EO. Ill replace the clutch then which might be next summer or the one after that. With the weather we have been having lately I dont think ill get much use of the car anyway.

    The quill shaft isnt as thick as my baby finger and yet it transmits all the torque to the gearbox. I checked the spline fit to make sure it wasnt starting to twist, a sign of a future break so im told. It passes the test. Seeing things like the weenie quill shaft just adds another component to the list of things ill be envisioning as I drive the snot out of the car. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

    I took a pic of the gearbox fill plug. Note the machined boss below it. The 365BB had an updated fill plug that involved installing a standpipe in through the fill hole that rasied the level of fluid required to run back out the fill hole therefore increasing the sump capacity. The 365BB carrier bearings were not submerged in lubricant, this modification achieved that among other things im sure. I have always wondered if this raised boss is an indication of the relocated fill hole that alll 512BB's and on got rather than the standpipe. If someone has a pic of a 365BB fill hole I please post it here so I can compare.
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  6. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #5 Rifledriver, Jul 19, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2009
    The small shaft, Ferrari calls it a propellor shaft BTW, is a good fuse. It will often break saving the internals. Not a bad thing.

    The splines that twist are the male splines on the input shaft the the propellor shaft slides over. You will have a tough time seeing those unless you remove the rear housing exposing the diff.

    That clutch looks pretty good. I am sure you can get some more good life from it.

    Note also the orange indexing marks on the P plate, floater plate and the spacer ring.


    If you think the Ansa is heavy you should lift an entire stock BB exhaust.
     
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  8. 2dinos

    2dinos F1 Rookie

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    #6 2dinos, Jul 20, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I'd love to get these dims from you per the dwg ( the 97.33 - 105), and ask you how your clutch feels? Is it linear, or does it have a toggle feel to it? The large heatshield was not terrible to get in or out without bending anything? I can't remember now how it went. From the top or bottom? All I remember is that it wasn't too bad. The headers weren't that bad either. All of those nuts alllowed a wrench / socket angle of access. IMO the craziest hard thing to deal with were the hoses etc at the firewall after the engine was in. I spent two days taking my sweet time on those to re-assemble. I think it took about an hour or less to dissassemble. Your car looks to be very nice. Mine had a leaking oil hose and the right side alternator was thoroughly soaked in motor oil. Some god awful synthetic stuff that laughed at any degreaser I'd throw at it. Your wires look perfect. Is the miss gone?
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  9. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Ill measure it once its back together which might be tomorrow. The miss is pretty much history but I still detect a little something, knowing the cap didnt look too good im trying another one out to rule out the CIS. After doing the wires and setting up the timing with some trial and error springs changes, the car had more pull than its ever had and thats when the clutch slipped!

    I noted the H marks on the discs and they were not opposite each other and the pressure plate has a big H on it as well (which will have nothing to do with disc orientation but adds confusion).

    So if the splines on the input shaft are twisted then the prop shaft isnt doing its job. The shaft slides feely on the splines so thats the best I can do because im not taking the rear cover off at this time.

    Do you have the overall thickness specs of the 3 components together? I brought the clutch and of course left the manual at home!
     
  10. 2dinos

    2dinos F1 Rookie

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    I would figure the "H" on the PP should go 180 from an "H" on the intermediate drive plate, and like wise with the driven discs. Does that sound reasonable Rifledriver?

    Thanks for getting the dims for me. I'm not crazy about the toggle. I was raving about how straightforwad Boxers drive based on others I've tried, but mine is a little touchy on the clutch. It engages right where the toggle "snaps over" so one must be extra strong and controlling of the clutch pedal during engagement. Not impossible, but not optimum either.
     
  11. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Because the pressure plate and discs move independantly the moment you press the clutch pedal there is no reason to index them to one another. The two discs have the H as well but mine were not set 180 degrees apart, they clearly dont move independantly of each other when splined together on the input shaft. Ill 180 the H's of the discs and put the plate back on the flywheel where it was (i marked it) and it should be fine. As for clutch feel it was linear, very nice feel and easy to control. Ill probably have borg and beck rebuilt rather than go to the replacement (nicer looking) clutch assy from ferrari, the toggle effect will drive me nuts.
     
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  13. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    #10 Newman, Jul 21, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  14. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    The paint marks on the pressure plate, spacer and floater plate are not "Heavy" marks. They are indexing marks and line up with each other.

    If your clutch has a toggle feel it is not shimmed correctly. It was a common problem. AP clutches are *****. They cannot do anything twice the same way.
     
  15. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    The discs and center plate measured 21.7mm so its in spec for the shim removal and re-install. Ill do that tonight. Spec is 21.5-22mm
     
  16. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    The clutch he has does away with the shims....or maybe not. I dont see how the borg and beck clutch needs shims and the replacement doesnt. The range of travel is the same and the clutch master is unchanged. Unless the plate has an automatic "take-up" like some ford plates, I dont see how it can keep chasing the wearing discs until the end.

    Can you post a pic of the new clutch Bruce?
     
  17. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    If the pedal is toggling it is trying to push the spring overcenter by stroking too far. That can be controlled by the shims (thicker shims) up until there is no longer sufficient clamping pressure. The new style clutch did do away with the shims and is a better design but still suffers from being an AP part and still suffers from their inability to do anything the same twice. Doing away with the disasterous 2 disc clutch from AP was probably the single biggest improvement made on the TR512.

    Those clutches were a headache and a warranty problem form their first use. I know it would be expensive but at some point after a few other projects are out of the way I want to convert our TR to the single plate clutch.

    Mac Tilton from Tilton Racing is an old friend and whenever those clutches or AP in general came up in conversation he would just laugh.
     
  18. 2dinos

    2dinos F1 Rookie

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    #15 2dinos, Jul 21, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hi Paul, There was some misunderstanding on the weight / balance stuff. I know the discs and drive plates can't reference each other in terms of balance (well - they could, but don't depress the clutch :)), Rifledriver came back with the important points - that being the PP and floater index marks line up together. Anyway - no prob with balance, just the toggle feel.

    Pix of the new AP (wonder clutch), and old clutch (I think is Borg & Beck). There is no practical way that I see to shim the AP setup. Also, the instructions I followed are shown.
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  19. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    #16 Newman, Jul 21, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thanks for the pics it sure is a nice looking clutch! I installed the bellhousing tonight and because i dont have the clutch disc alignment tool for a 2 disc setup I assembled the clutch differently than enzo would like. I slid the bellhousing in with the plate nuts loose and no propeller shaft or o-rings. Snugged a few nuts up through the side slots in the housing and then removed the bellhousing again, presto the discs are aligned then I finished tightening them before installing the housing and everything that goes with that. My daughter needed some attention so that was it for the night but she sat there in her bouncy chair and watched me until she had enough. Tomorrow ill do as much as I can without the mufflers.

    I measured the slave cylinder range of travel Bruce. 4" at rest position from the underside of the aluminum cylinder mount to the center of the pin. Fully depressed is 4-3/4" same point of measurement. I didnt have your photo handy and my manual doesnt have that pic so I didnt do the half way? mesurement. Hope it helps.
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  20. 2dinos

    2dinos F1 Rookie

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    Thanks for the measurement. Your setup is about 4mm shorter than mine. This would line up with what rifledriver said about going over center. I may try and make up a new slave pushrod. I can't reposition the lever on the splines. It moves the geometry way too much.
     
  21. 2dinos

    2dinos F1 Rookie

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    I agree on the AP looks. It's a handsome piece. The cover is anodized. The rivets look to be set with great care, and the springless center sure looks like 6AL4V titanium. I think the prob's with consistency that Brian is referring to has to do with the diaphragm spring - this could be the root of the toggle feel??
     
  22. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Correct, it is from the spring being deflected too far concave. Like I said it can stick in that direction at high RPM. BTDT

    In my experience it seems to be from AP wanting to assemble the clutches by measured spring pressure rather than finger angularity. If the parts were consistant and the springs all of the same tension the finger angularity would be consistant but it is not.
     
  23. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    #20 Newman, Jul 24, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    One thing or another conspired to keep me away from the boxer clutch this week. I picked up the exhaust from the powder coater today - satin heat resistant black, Ansa sent me some decals and stripes as well (arrived today too). New air filters, donuts and bypass pipe gaskets arrived here today too. The muffler is supposed to be black wrinkle paint, powdercoating will protect it on the outside at least and if I felt like spray painting over the powder coat for the OEM finish I could. I dont want to though, they turned out too nice to paint, they look perfect. Ill add the decals and stripes this week and button it up.
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  24. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    That looks really good. The Ansa paint burned off the first time it got hot anyway. I don't know how many BBs I put Ansa's on and had some motorist tell me the car was on fire on the test drive from all the paint burning off.
     
  25. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Thanks Brian,

    On the topic of installing the Ansa's. Frank Foitek told me on the phone that they installed the ansa sport exhaust on my car when new. I asked what they did with the original system - long shot - and he told me it went in a pile to rust away, long gone. What did your dealer do with such parts?
     
  26. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #23 Rifledriver, Jul 24, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2009
    It stainless so it never rusted away.

    Gave them to the car owner to take home. We would always have a few left behind but they took up a lot of space and in those days were not worth anything so eventually got given to scrap metal guys. The same thing happens over and over. The last dealer I worked at we must have had 4 or 5000 lbs of 355, 360, 550 and 456 mufflers. We never sold a single one so we sold them for scrap. 20 or 30 years later that stuff becomes worth something but you would need to have a 100,000 sq ft building to store it so you could sell 10 of them 20 years later.

    I probably personally threw 25 old Daytona era ignition boxes in the dumpster. A burned up one is worth about a grand now.
     
  27. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    #24 Newman, Aug 2, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Well I came back from holidays and finished my clutch job friday night then drove it up to the cottage as a good test, around 320kms round trip. No issues, the clutch action is different now, linear still but lighter. I attribute that lightness to the mechanical advantage of the pressure plate fingers being in a different position now. I would swear I put a new clutch in it just because the feel is so different. Time well spent for sure. The coated mufflers went on without a scratch, new decals and stripes. After the one way trip to the cottage the stripes have shrunk and the shields are discolouring, that was a waste of time! I replaced the hardware, donuts and touched up the headers while I was there. It was hard to stop there though I wanted to pull the engine and restore the darn thing but I had to get it done friday night so I worked until around 10pm. So on the way a guy in a 5.0 mustang followed me for about an hour on the 2 lane windy roads, he backed off at around 180kph lol. On the way back the tables were turned, I was behind a CL55 AMG Merc. My TRX's let me down lol.
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