BBi vs F12

I am on the same boat, happy F12 owner but have been looking at 512 BBs for a minute. Anyone that has both please chime in.

 

I have neither but do have experience with in-period cars for both. Have either of you owned an exotic of this time period? What is your expectation? Your F12s will DO everything better, so there is really not a comparison in those terms. The ride will be rougher, the inputs will require more force, the car won't stop as well, the AC won't work all that well, the narrower tires won't have as much grip. You really need to want a classic exotic experience.....to appreciate the history.....but if you do, it will be a wonderful ownership experience.

 

Funny, I was looking for a F12 for a period of time and drove several during my search. I have a very well sorted BBi, purchased it from Paul Newman. The two couldn’t be more different, two ends of the spectrum completely. The F12 is a true GT car, a comfortable Ferrari with lots of power that’s relatively easy to drive and good for longer distances. A continent crosser. Which is the reason that I was looking, I wanted to participate in the FCA in region trips that weren’t possible in a BB. In contrast, the BBi, is a blast to drive for short distances, amazing sound, great power, true race car feel, with a very heavy clutch and no power steering. It’s a workout to drive, but well worth the effort. Exhilarating fun over a shorter distances. Excellent compliment to a F12.

 

It really depends what are you looking for in a car. The F12 does everything perfect - easy to drive in traffic, comfortable and easy to live with. And fast as f#*k if you push it hard. Handles great and is very manageable if you throw it really fast into corners.

The BBi is obviously the exact opposite to all of that. But it's a classic, it offers a pure analogue driving experience and it has its own character.

I don't think anyone should answer your question perfectly here, because both cars can't be more different from each other and it is all a matter of personal preference at that point. The best thing for you is to try finding a way to test drive a BBi.

Also keep in mind, that life will become much different with the BBi. Some parts will be hard or almost impossible to find, you will need a very good mechanic, who knows what he is doing, when it comes to old cars and you will need to think more about the car - for example to not overheat the engine in the hot summer days, to not damage the leather if you leave it on the sun and so on... It will not be start and go , like it is now with the F12.

 

This can't be overstressed enough....

 

I somewhat disagree and the concerns raised need to be taken in context:

Yes, some items can be tough to find, etc... but this is true for many Ferrari's (even even other marques) including much newer models. That said, because Boxer's are older tech and have been around longer, there are firms that have recreated or improved many of the original parts that were problematic and/or are not available from Ferrari

This is very true, but again not specific to the Boxer. Even F-car dealers' skill and quality of service can vary dramatically. The Boxer's mechanical bits are not "rocket" science and so are very straightforward to those that truly understand auto mechanics. Injected Boxers (BBis)'s fuel system is made by Bosch and so is shared among many other cars from that era (Mercedes, Porsche, etc) and so shops that are thoroughly conversant with Bosch's injection system can be called upon if needed. Like most things these days... the challenge is to sort through and find those shops that are truly skilled and charge reasonably, as opposed to those shops that are simply full of themselves.

Boxers are not noted to have overheating issues, in fact quite the opposite in most applications. Secondly, maintenance is the key to ensure that all of the cooling bits are working as they should. Now, if you are driving in extreme heat with extreme humidity, then sure the car can run hot... but, again, this can be the case with many other cars and not just the Boxer.

Same with all cars. Leather is leather and will dry out and/or fade in extreme sunlight... Conditioning and maintenance is the key.

Not true. BBi's typically start very easily and without drama. Carb Boxers (BBs) are a different story and so can be cranky when they sit for extended periods or in very cool/cold conditions. Driving carbed or injected when cold does require a bit of time until the bits warm up, but this is also not specific to the Boxer and is attributed to the mechanical part's design, manufacturing tolerances, and targeted lubricants used.

That said, a new or newer Ferrari will certainly be easier to live with... given that it is new, has newer design/manufacturing processes, and no doubt addressed many issues that past Ferrari's had. I think basing a decision on whether or not to consider a Boxer based upon these merits alone is short sighted and if anything misses what the Boxer is all about. However, it is your decision and so you have to see which car ticks your boxes the most, but I would suggest you drive and experience a Boxer first hand before making your decision.

Cheers,

Sam

 

+/- 50 years

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Remember we are comparing the BBi only with the F12 in this thread. The F12 is almost bulletproof (except the gearbox) and you can just take the car to the dealer and they will not bother you with parts, questions or anything else. The case with the BBi is a completely different story.

BBis may not be prone to overheating of course, but the almost 40 year difference between the BBi and F12 for sure means, that the BBi may overheat easier than the F12, obviously because of the already old hoses, radiators, fans and so on.
Same is for the leather - one is 7-8 year old, the other one is 40+ years old.

I will never believe, that the hassle will be the same with the F12 and with the BBi. Damn, I have a 512TR, which is much newer than the BBi and it is far from "start and go", especially compared to my F12. That was my point. You need to warm the engine gently, you will need to warm the gearbox to make it work properly, if you need the heater you will need to wait a lot and so on...

One is a modern car, the other is an oldtimer. So in that regard all I said was true. But then again - to each its own.

 

I’ve had my Boxer, BBi, for 10 years and haven’t had any of the issues mentioned here. Never once overheated, never have had issues with finding parts, my leather has been replaced so no issues there. You will need to find a Ferrari dealer that has some tenured technicians or an independent. The BBi is everything that the F12 isn’t and vice versa. Much more rare as well, roughly half were produced and zero sold officially in the US. Great compliment!

 

Good day rumen1,

Understood. However, your comparisons are subjective and apparently based on a barn find Boxer that still maintains original hoses, etc. This can be the case, but I would think that someone considering a Boxer would probably look for one that has been maintained with many of its original "wear" parts replaced.

As for the leather... just because leather is old does not mean it is worn... it all depends on how it was cared for and the environment where it lived. Extreme heat, extended direct sunlight, and minimal care will accelerate the leather dramatically. Even new Ferrari leather is immune from such cases and so is not an absolute comparison. All things being equal, newer leather would probably has less wear. However, older and well cared for Ferrari leather has an aroma that I have not found with new leather.

As for start and go... again, it is subjective and is based on the driver. If you mean start the car and immediately drive the car hard and at speed, then the boxer will not be the car for you. However, to others... starting and warming up the car for an extended drive is a non issue and is part of the experience.

As for the dealer not "bothering you" if you have a F12... well... time will tell, but in my opinion repairs on a Boxer will be much easier and faster to do... because it is far simpler design and has much less electronic items to deal with. For the boxer, far more parts can be repaired, whereas, on the F12 they will simply be replaced assuming that these electronic bits are not back ordered and/or available. It would be interesting to jump 40 years into the future and see if one can still maintain and drive an F12 (assuming Petrol is still available then), whereas, we know that Boxers are still driven and serviced now and they are over 40 years old.

The above comments are all moot, as both cars are dramatically different and tick different boxes for different people. There is no question the Boxer is older and so will not nearly be as precise... but that is its total charm. It is purely an analog car and so it demands all of your attention and if you decide to do something silly, it will bite you. If someone does not want this, then the Boxer is not the car for them... and this is totally fine. However, to single out the Boxer's faults given its design and age is simply unfair.

Cheers,

Sam

 

It is very simple - one car is modern, the other one is not. It is not about design flaws, or anything like that. It is simply because of technology and age. As simple as that. The leather may be the same, the glue and its age are not. The hoses may be changed, but that doesn't mean, that the 40-year old car is as reliable as the 8-year old car, as there are not only the hoses, that can lead to overheating, right?

One car can be used for all purposes, the other one can not. And please do not hold on so strong to a single word , that I have said. I have never said , that the BBi WILL overheat. I just said, that for sure it will be more prone to overheating, than a 8-year F12.

What will happen after 40 years is an interesting question, but it is far from what is discussed in this thread.

 

Good day rumen1,

I say again ... you are subjective in your comparisons. You are assuming that the Boxer has not been refreshed, restored, etc and so your "old glue" comparison is an assumption that the interior was not redone (recently or in the past). All I am saying is that you cannot make such statements without you qualifying or stating your assumptions.

As for your overheating comment... again, you based your conclusions based upon a car's age without any regard to the car's condition and what was done to the car. This is simply an inaccurate generalization and is not absolute. A barn find or untouched boxer will most likely have lots of reliability issues, but I would submit that comparing a barn find Boxer to a F12 is an unfair comparison.

As for reliability... I can provide a couple of rebuttals. The first is based upon mathematical statistics. Effectively the probability of a failure (reliability) is heavily influenced by the number of components/subsystems that the item is composed of. The more bits the higher the chance of a failure. New and newer cars have far more components for them to work than older cars. and so statistically they have a higher probability of a failure. Compare this to a boxer where there are far less components and even electronics to make them work and so there is less to go wrong and thus can be more reliable. The second example is a real World one. I had a an old 1957 Chev truck that spent its life outdoors in extreme cold weather conditions (-30C to -40C for weeks/months) without any aids (no block heather, battery tender, etc). This truck would start and run without issue at any time with a two pumps of the accelerator, engaging the choke, and the twist of the ignition key. I challenge any new or newer car to do the same in the same conditions. Even if the newer car was left indoors for a few months (with the battery still connected) the vast majority would not start. Does this mean that the 1957 is more reliable? Yes, but in the context of how I presented it. No, in terms of other factors. This is my point.

Many of your statements are subjective and so cannot be made as blanket conclusions and matters of fact.

As I said before... the two cars are dramatically different and so all of the items you raised can be things to consider... but they are not definitive or absolute.

Cheers,

Sam

 

The whole thread is subjective, of course I will be subjective when we are talking just for models and not for particular cars. So I guess we should just conclude, that I am talking about the best F12 on the market vs the worst BBi and you are talking about the best, top-restored BBi on the market vs the worst F12.

But that only just means, that your opinion is as "subjective" as mine. And I can clearly see, that you are talking the same things over and over again, so I guess this conversation is not going anywhere.

So let's just wait for Jeffrey to make the switch and say who was right and who was wrong.

 

Let's revisit this thread in 50 years and see who was right and who was wrong.

 

Good day rumen1,

I am not making any comparisons... they are both completely different cars and each have their own merits. Secondly, I am not encouraging one car over the other and so to me there is no right or wrong as you suggest.... every person has different things that excite them and so it is up to them to decide which car suits them best. I am only "defending" the Boxer because your comments come across as definitive when in fact they based upon specific comparisons that have not been defined and so your conclusions are not necessarily accurate as a generalization or are absolute.

Whatever car the fellow chooses, I will be happy for him...plain and simple.

Cheers,

Sam

 

I had an 84 BBI from new and never experienced any mechanical or other issues. Reliability, grace, handling, looks, sale-ability were tops. 1 of 2 Ferrari cars I wish I had never sold.

 

i have driven an f12. it is virtually perfect.
i have owned a bbi for 15 years, driven it on the tour of sicily and the targa florio, and on road trips through 7 countries. it is not perfect, but it is a delight for a vintage car lover.
it has speed, presence, and panache, and a variety of peculiarities that make it a man's car, a driver's car, and not for the faint of heart.
my 80 yr old mother could drive an f12 easily.
not so the bbi.

if you come to houston, let me know and you can drive mine and see for yourself.

 

Maybe your mom would prefer the rawness if the carbureted version.

 

well her cars are a 280 sl, a 500sl, an SL65, and a ferrari 456mgta.....so she is not your average octogenerian.
she has driven all my cars at least once.
she did not like to drive the 512bbi or the f40.
the 430, and therefore by inference every modern ferrari, was a dawdle.

next question?

what i am trying to explain to the OP is that there is no easy comparison of the 512bbi to an F12.
he has to experience it.
and my prediction is that IF his past experience is just in modern ferraris or other sportscars, he will not like the 512bbi. it requires effort, forethought, and some driving skill.
the F12 can do almost everything without much input from you.
its a whole different deal

 

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Trick question??
If not, I'd say, "Yes".

imho:

I've had the pleasure of driving them, and they are great. (To me) The BBi feels more like it should be pushed down the Mulsanne. The F12 is like a higher-revving AMG and has more modern refinements with auto-shift. Also, F12 is more comfortable and has better headroom. The BBi demands more skill and exertion to achieve very high-performance capabilities, whereas the F12 feels like the potential is 'right there.' I've done an 8-hour drive in the BBi. The bummer was the speed limits. Overall, both are fantastic machines with different personalities.

The sound: Both produce a wonderful mechanical 12 cyl symphony.

 

After owning a '77 308 GTB for six years I really wanted a BB or BBi. I couldn't come to terms with a few owners and dealers so I ended up with an '08 599. I have driven enough BB cars to able to tell you they are quirky, not in a bad way but in a vintage car way. The 599 is bullet proof, modern, faster than I would ever want to drive with remarkable braking ability. The BB will roast you in the summer. I always thought I would change out the radiator for a racing unit so the car would not over heat. The car is very low like a race car which is great fun but you are looking directly into the axels of 18 wheelers which on the highway I hate. Having said all that I'm still toying with buying a BB or BBi. The modern Fcars are wonderful but you honestly can't compare them to a BB. If you like to fuss with your cars, the BB is a great car and very rewarding to drive. Mind the brakes!

 

if I would be you I would buy a BB carb. but for driving this car it needs expierence. the BBi is more for travelling/long distance driving, but then better take the F12