Agreed - crew salaries will be the smallest part. Fuel the most expensive, followed by maintanence.
A lot of the airline pilots do not transition to corporate very well. They have been in a world with fixed duty schedules, well set flight departures and an infrastructure where others do their planning for them. Some do make the change but many do not and then leave when airline opportunities reopen. One is not better or worse, just different mentalities are required. Someone brought up the point of parts cost of airliner versus Gulfstream. True, regular rotable parts for a Being will regularly be less. Thousands and thousands of aircraft in service means economies of scale and makes a huge pool of parts available from lots of different sources. Aircraft operators can directly deal with the component manufacturer without going through the airframe manufacturer. The per-hour maintenance shop rate for a VIP Boeing should be less than going to a facility doing traditional corporate jets. Even for VIP maintenance projects the major market pricing is set by what the airlines pay for third party work. There will be a premium above this for one-off VIP projects but it is still should be no less than a $20 per hour savings against the Gulfstream and Bombardier type places. Places doing VIP are also a lot more used to the operator supplying their own parts which is another savings. In the case of a BBJ1 this can be a substantial offset to a bunch of the higher fuel burn. Outfitting cost. BBJ1 green outfitting starts at $15mil and goes up. Even in the earliest days of the BBJ (1998-2000) when the "standard" cost was more around $12mil there were a couple done above $20mil. The second VIP 777 done around 2003 was $45 mil and the back 1/3 or more was airliner. Other than big the interior was not particularly nice. Jeff
I thought the fuel burn on a SP was the same as or exceeded that of a 400, I know a 400 has more range and has go to be easier and cheaper to keep. All of which makes me wonder why a Sp is still flown, why not just use a used 400.
SP has the range of a -400 but using older less fuel efficient technology. Not a whole bunch of SP were ever built as they were used on very long non-stop flights of the time. The 2 main airline buyers were Qantas to do non-stop from LA and South African Airways because during apartheid they could not overfly a bunch of the African countries from London. SPs have no airline buyers as they are too costly to operate for the passenger load and are now just too old. Most of the SPs in VIP have interiors from long ago and can be bought for CHEAP. Far less than the interior cost back when, let alone what it would cost to duplicate. -400 still has value unless it has huge hours. Huge hours would then make it undesirable to anyone for a VIP conversion. With the -400 also one is back to the interior conversion cost which should be thought of as $50 mil minimum unless all that is desired is glorified airline seating. Excepting a few exceptions already noted 747s end up with governments and quasi-government types. Not only do they have huge operating costs the interiors are so huge that unless one travels with huge support/entourages it is way, way more space than makes any sense. The other point is that aircraft of this size are limited where they go because of their runway length requirements, weight, ramp parking space requirements and such.
In addition to what Jeff said about the engines, the -400 has a different wing/body fairing vs. the older aircraft (which results in additional fuel savings). Plus, to take a -400 and re-equip it as an VIP model, that's like moving from a 2000 sq. ft house to a 5,000 sq. ft house with zero furnishings. It costs a lot of money to refurbish an aircraft VIP wise.
I flew out to South Africa a few timnes on the SAA sps back in the day. You could also visit the cockpit back then for a chat with the fight crew. I remmebr the captain telling me how well they climbed compared to a 200 series. I also rmemeber the view of the stars from the jumpseat somewhere between NY and Africa, well actualy NY and Il do Sol island where they refueled. Never seen stars like that again. Even earlier probably 1975 I rmember getting picked up by a quantas 707 in mauritius where thye used to land on the way to South Africa. In between there were also a number of flights on BOAC VC10's which landed in the Seychelles and columbo on their way to Hong Kong. There was some type of scope theu could put through the cockpit roof to look at the stars on the VC10 although I never saw it done. Funny thing was those Vc 10's and the 707's had basicaly a parcel shelf for overhead lugauage, quite a contrast to today where there is militancy about everythign being stowed. Still best most fun flight by far, was the two trips on the concorde. Everytime I go on a 747 these days i know it is comming to an end, and one day they will not be in mainline service, which is a shame because foir a pasenger it is by far the most comfortable, and somehow one is consoled thta the thing has been built for so long that any falws have been ironed out. On the 380 I just wonder.
Jet-X Some of your points might need adjustment. Training costs in a Boeing are dirt cheap compared to GIV,V, 550,650. In fact the 737 type is one of the cheapest out there right now behind a CE-500. The G650 type is around $100,000. Next, pilot salaries. The airlines have trained thousands of Boeing pilots...and furloughed the same. Companies like Polar, Atlas etc. dont pay what you would think just because they are flying a 747. Besides, their schedule is brutal and probably have a high turnover rate. As per the last Propilot survey, BBJ pilot salaries compare with Global, V, 550 guys. BUT the job market for BBJ drivers is small and by word of mouth. Lastly parts. Our Ferrari oil pump isnt any more complicated than a Toyota, but it is priced like gold. Why? They only make say 2000 Ferrari pumps and have to pay for R&D plus the little yellow box. Toyota will make 20,000 oil pumps and spread out the R&D costs. Thus you can get a Camry pump for $40 and not $400 for the Ferrari one. Case in point. GIV/450/V/550 windshield: $67,000 (I just replaced one 2 weeks ago). B-737 cockpit windshield $6,000. In general terms a Gulfstream part is far more expensive than a B-737 part because they are made in smaller batches. There have been almost 8000 73's made. Gulfstream has only made 2,000 planes (including all models even the 150 and 200). I am willing to bet that there is a bunch of part cross over with Boeing products. But I think you get my point. Now here is where it gets interesting. I have heard that Boeing wont let the average BBJ owner just replace a part with an off the shelf 737 part. Apparently they change the part numbers when it comes to the BBJ's. Identical part, higher price. In the end, you can get a big bang for your buck with an older Boeing. But the fuel costs will catch up to you if you plan on putting on the miles.
I stand corrected on all (but the salaries which I'll discuss in a second) the points you brought up. My info was coming from a G550/650 owner and comparing it to what information I have. You have first hand experience, and that's better than what I've had to compare (an owner not fully in touch it seems). But the salaries... I have friends that work at Atlas ironically (and have worked at the other non-airline companies). With the exception of an airline like Evergreen (who paid ****ty), a lot of the cargo carriers pay similar rates (or higher in the case of UPS) than the passenger counterparts. I know a lot of the salaries are generated based off the gross weight of the aircraft (vs. passengers carried), so it's not correct to assume a Atlas 747 pilot is pulling in what another airline pilot is making. High turnover for freight carriers, I don't see it. Practically every airline/cargo carrier is on the seniority system via respective union, and my experience with these pilots has been they don't leave unless they want or are prepared to start at the bottom again (or be an expatriate pilot for an Asian/Middle Eastern carrier). As for schedule, it depends on what carrier, aircraft and routes you're on. I had a friend who worked not a brutal schedule (he never referred to it that way) but was criss-crossing the globe constantly, at least to me. Then there's another fella who's had a very comfortable position in the right seat at a major freight carrier on MD-11s, pulling in a good salary, has plenty of time at home, etc. I think we should pull Lou into this, he's flying for a freight company (albeit an extension of a passenger airline), he could certainly bring his experience into the fray. Interestingly enough, while a few years old (and take it with a grain of salt), I found this airline pilot (including cargo carrier) salary estimate (per hour) interesting. Surprised to see a small carrier like Alaska at the top of the pay list. Airline Pilot Pay Rates
Jet, I was pulling numbers from The 2 above mentioned carriers. ANA FED EX UPS etc are all quality outfits. They are defiantly not pilot training centers hahah. I guess the point I was trying to make is that there are a whole lot more pilots with B737 type ratings than G ratings. I was riding the VNY flyaway with a Polar guy a couple of years ago talking about schedules etc. and he made it out to be a nightmare. Thats the majority of my experience. Hopefully someone here will be able to give us some real world numbers on parts MX costs for the Boeings. I would also like to know from an operator standpoint. I have always just spouted off, "Boeing corporate refurbs are cheap to get into but fuel costs will catch up to you." It would be nice to put some figures behind that claim to reaffirm or debunk my mentality.
Fair enough. Every carrier is different, and the guy from Polar might have been right (I don't know anyone working for Polar). But I think it varies carrier to carrier regarding schedule. Even salary, was surprised by Evergreen's numbers (low), especially because they just filed bankruptcy. I think each part it depends for cost/availability. Your 737 examples sound correct, but then you hear the stories about the Boeing 717 (ok, a McDonnell Douglas MD-95), and how not only are parts not available any more, airlines are looking into grounding some 717s just to cannabilize them for parts. Especially given how derivative of a DC-9 it is. I know not everything is a derivative. Airlines like Hawaiian Airlines have even stated they love the 717 so much, they're not looking at a replacement for the next 5-7 years it's that good of a fit of an aircraft for their system. But like you, I'd like to know. I bet I can find out, just need to do some digging...
I can talk some in the BBJ1 vs GV, Global. Crew costs. Figure exactly the same as top equipment folks will be paid the same whether sitting in the latest Gulfstream or a BBJ. Same complement of flight attendant and maintenance persons too. Fuel. Absolutely the CFM-56 burns more fuel. It takes more to move 170,000 lbs through the sky than 100,000 lbs. Maintenance. BBJs on the low utilization maintenance program use a 12 year cycle. Historically Gulfstreams had been 72 months then switched to a 96 month cycle. There is a philosophical difference in the way that the programs are conceived. Gulfstream likes lots of small task cards all the time. Boeing consolidates the tasks into major events of B and C checks. Parts are much less since so many more aircraft in the fleet. More places for overhauls and repairs too. One concern with the BBJs is doing rotable swaps since at best a BBJ accumulates 1,000 hours in a year but a Southwest part would be getting 2,500 hours and as many cycles. The BBJs are more likely to have their original part overhauled with a loaner while waiting. As I talked earlier the shop rate $ for maintenance between the BBJ and the Gulfstream/Global is quite different. For the Gulfstreams and Global class you are likely to be paying $90 and higher per hour with no negotiation against book time numbers. The BBJ operator has lots of sources for their maintenance and therefore the ability to negotiate their deal. Places like Associated in Dallas and Bizjet in Tulsa that perform interiors are possibilities as well as MRO that primarily do airlines. $65 an hour for quality maintenance work is doable. One can negotiate the numbers into hours performed and even fixed price for all the routine portion. Airline MROs are used to the client show up with their own parts so a smart operator can make some significant saving in this area too. So the question is does the maintenance equalize the fuel. No, but it offsets a large portion. To put it into a different perspective will the person that can afford to put 300-400 hours on a GV/550 or Global family be priced out of affording the same hours on a BBJ? No. If they can comfortably afford one they can certainly afford the other. Other factors that will matter though are the inability to use Teterboro airport, Aspen restrictions and if someone really uses all the range of the Gulfstream or Global then the Boeing is a problem. 6,200 nm is the max with the BBJ1 with 9 tanks but it forces so many compromises that only one or two have been done truly successfully. Eurocontrol. There is another area where the Boeing will be disadvantaged, Eurocontrol. They charge by maximum weight rating so one is back to the 170,000 lb. versus 100,000 lb. issue.
I want to bring up the pilot discussion too. A scheduled carrier pilot, passenger or freighter, has expectations that do regularly make it difficult to reorient to corporate/VIP operations. The scheduled carrier pilot knows their flying schedule and can plan their other activities. Depending upon the situation with any particular owner the corporate pilot may be on perpetual call with "ready to depart" in a few hours. Within those few hours it could mean that all the crew has to be assembled, fight planning arranged, overflys, catering, fuel and just getting out to the aircraft with the APU running and ready to receive the passengers. Maybe it is a little 1 hour flight or heading transoceanic. There are owners that have the aircraft just s that they can go anywhere they want on a few hours notice. The variation of this is where all the arrangement were made for one destination and with minimal notice the destination is somewhere completely different. Another aspect of corporate flight operations is that the owner/passenger "on time performance". Many have the aircraft for the flexibility factor. If they show up early everyone departs early. If they show up late then there is a new "on time" departure. Regularly some of these revised schedules are not in minutes but in hours. If one is lucky the passenger group will call to let the crew have an update but for others no. Sit and wait while burning Jet A for the APU because they could show up at any moment. Depending upon the flight the whole time the lots are rolling the flight plans for new projected departure times. There could also be ground arrangements at destination that could also be getting reset. So, some of the snipping by the cargo pilots may be that they are comparing their situation against the passenger airlines and the UPS, FedEx groups. If they are thinking that their lot has issues then they definitely are not ready for the corporate pilot gig. Jeff
Don't some VIP/corporate pilots benefit from being paid handsomely to sit at home waiting for a call though? If you are fortunate enough to fly for an owner who flies infrequently but you are kept on retainer, that must be quite some down time to enjoy whilst still earning.
Yes but they are salary and not paid by flight hours. There is a BBJ owner in So Cal with a full flight operation on staff but only flies 50-75 hours per year. Everyone of them should have great golf games. Some of the international operators that do crew rotations have ben known to hang out at the hotel for an entire rotation period waiting for a flight phone call. Pay is the same. Hopefully the location is a good one for those weeks of duty time. Jeff
If you're really looking to cut some costs on a VIP Boeing, just do it like the Sultan of Brunei. Fly the thing (747-400) yourself. Thought it was a typo when I first saw it written he did that in an article. As in oh...he must be up there mid-flight and let the pilots land. Nope, he lands it himself.
I was once introduced to a gentleman who flew rotary for a founder of a well known tech company. Turns out he had a very healthy golf game but learned to despise yachts. Still, there are worse ways to earn a salary. I guessed the same applied for those flying business jets. Lots of well paid hurry up and wait.
Traditional airline pilots often don't transition well to the corporate or charter role. However, there are lots of people in the non-sked world who have done both, and the non-sked world inherently includes much more of the uncertainty of the corporate world. That said, I agree that the payscale should be about the same for a G guy versus a Boeing guy. You'd be better off training your G guy to fly the Boeing. My original point was that you shouldn't expect a corporate 747 captain to be making significantly more than a G captain because it's a 747.
Yes, Sultan of Brunei is a pilot of his own aircraft. King Hussein of Jordan was noted for flying his aircraft too. Crown Prince of Thailand flies his Boeings and is also a fighter pilot. Jeff
As a corporate guy who has flown the last 12 in G products based in So Cal...... One job was month in Asia, one month home. I would average our month on flying at 15 hours. The rest was sitting in a hotel planning out what joint to go to dinner. Month home doing nothing but play with the dog and toys. One job was Horrible Pay ($72k year) but we flew an average of 90 hours.....a year. I made up the difference in contract work for friends. In the end I had to quit as the owner wanted to take more and more trips, but keep our salary the same. He got the message after I quit and gave my buddy a raise to keep him available. I fly part 91/135 now. Good pay and I am averaging 14 days a month flying/away from home with 6 hard days off. I have corporate friends that have good pay/ bad schedule, bad pay / good schedule and one or two with good pay / good schedule. I kinda like the charter gig. Im busy enough not to get cabin fever and like going to places I can dive. The company is ok and would never pressure us to do anything unsafe. For the most part, owners do pay you to be available. If that means sitting at home working on the house, so be it. Our pay is a drop in the bucket. Let me put the 'drop in the bucket' statement into perspective. I sometimes run into the mentality of the owner getting upset with a high MX or fuel bill etc. I laugh. Years ago, my neighbor and I had the same lawn guy. Neighbors yard was green, mine was brown. I asked the gardener whats the issue? He said sheepishly.....You neighbors pays me an extra $15 to put fertilizer on his lawn.....thats a lot of money!! For him yes, me no. I had a green lawn from then on. Now to the aircraft owner. We are talking about billionaires here. If my net worth is $100,000 and his is $1 billion, Thats a thousand to one ratio. Me handing him a $15,000 bill is like my gardener handing me a $15 bill. Big F****ng deal. It expensive to be vain. Say a G-Crew costs the owner $300,000 a year, thats like me employing three people for $300 annually.
All intriguing and good stuff - I enjoy reading about all of this. I didn't know for sure, but assumed (correctly it seems) that corporate gigs are salary - the expectation you are on call vs. commercial where you are paid only when flying.
$300k per year for a crew? I thought senior captains make $300k per year by themselves, and this is what a private employer would also pay for a pilot and maybe a little less for a co-pilot??
And on top of that, in the down-time, a few of them get to play with the bosses' mega-million-dollar Ferrari/Maserati/Bugatti/etc. collection…..just keep that mobile handy…..
Im gonna make the assumption that the $300k mark is toward the end of the career with a major and that business model is dying. IIRC a ten year Cpt with Jet blue is at $125k. Then again Im assuming as I dont run with the airline crowd. Good folk Im sure....we just took different paths. The figures Im gonna throw out can vary widely; $150k Capt, $90K FO, $60K FA. I would say these are fairly accurate for high cost of living area, experienced crew working for a reputable company domestically in a large cabin aircraft. I know of only one person who is near the $300k mark and he is one on and one off in Africa......no thanks. Another buddy is $250k in Asia full time. Again thanks no.....been there done that. When I was 'earning my wings' my mentality was to be an airline pilot. No commuters would touch me with 1000 hours but I got a job flying a Lear at 25y/o then captain a year later. The plan was to bypass the commuters completely but the bottom for airline hiring fell out after 911. Thus I stuck with corporate upgrading to bigger planes etc. I fly a GIV now and am typed with time in the GV, G550. The GIV is the sleeper in the corporate world taking a back seat to the Globals, 550's and 450 for the long hauls. I like that. Im home more than your average bear. is being gone 20+ days a month worth it for another 15k... Gotta go, I got Ribeyes on the bbq
