BELT CHANGE ON A BBI

it depends where you live
your profile says nothing about your location

 

Steve,

You are looking at $2000 in parts and a week off from work. Don't plan anything on those two weekends either. At $150 an hour if you pay someone to do it, figure $10,000 for parts and labor. Another $600 labor and $200 materials to adjust the valves once the engine is out of the car. The nice thing about a Boxer is that once the engine is out you can practically do everything it needs from a Lazyboy.

 

Good day Andy,

I am curious what parts you are referring to when you stated:

I ask, as
- timing belts are under $13 each (2x) from Ferrari UK or Superformance,
- tensioners are about $40 each (2x) for the same suppliers, or $73 for the Hill Engineering ones
- Water pump gasket, seals, etc work out to be about $130
- Oil Filters are $26 each (2x)
- Oil, coolant, etc

This is well under the $2K you mentioned and from notable suppliers.

As for the time involved... It takes roughly 6-7 hours to remove the Boxer engine and about the same to install. This depends upon how much the gods favor you in terms of removing the exhaust manifold to head nuts, etc. The time to replace the belts would be dependent upon whether one checks and adjust valve timing, valve clearance, refinish./replate fasteners exhaust manifolds, etc and other areas, check/inspect/replace various cooling system hoses (now's the time for those in front of the engine), etc. Usually when the engine is out for a timing belt service, other items are addressed, as it is far easier to do at this time.

Lastly, I would also suggest one pressure tests the engine assembly when doing any work on the water pump when the engine is out, as it would be a sad day if one discovered a bad water pump seal and/or its installation when the engine was back into the car.

Cheers,

Sam

 

Sam, Andy was very helpful to me when I did an engine out +++++ service and he's including things which most people never do like new gaskets for intake, exhaust having some pieces replated and some other things which should get done but doesn't. Even new shims for valve adjustments cost some bucks. Yeah if you pull the motor and just rebuild the water pump and change the belts it's 500.00 bucks. You show me one mechanic who charges for 15 hrs to do a motor R&R. None, zip, zero. I know it can be done, but it's not what gets charged.

My estimate for a major on a Boxer is 10K at competent shop/person. But good luck finding many.

 

Good day dwhite,

Indeed, I figured as much knowing how much "basic" replacement parts cost. With that said, I find it helpful to present pricing, etc in context so that new or perspective buyers can have an accurate understanding of the various item prices. With regards to your comment about some shops not truly charging for the hours they spend... yup, I get it. Here again, I presented real factual time to remove and reinstall a Boxer engine. I might also add that my first time took close to 7 hours to remove the engine within a home garage. Now that I have a larger space and a hoist I am around 6 hours working at a relaxed pace. However, there are times where there is a stubborn fastener that seems to take pleasure at causing problems and so a single fastener can suck up way more time than it should. I believe that the inflated part prices, excessive and/or inaccurate time spent to service Boxers, etc have significantly contributed to the low Boxer valuations that we have seen. After all how can the big $ service costs encourage perspective buyers to jump in? There is no question that some Boxer parts are big $, but excluding those the cost of owning and maintaining a Boxer is in the same ball park as a 308. I suspect that if more people realized the true maintenance costs that demand for the Boxers would increase, as they are truly magnificent cars and leap years ahead of 308's or 246's etc.

Cheers,

Sam

 

Not changing the cam seals and lip seal for the distributor (and you'll need a new distributor gasket) seems like a false economy to me unless they've been replaced very recently. Same for other items like lip seals for the cam drive shafts and the outer cam drive bearings plus a bunch of hoses and hose couplings. How many miles and years since these items have been refreshed? If you're doing a comprehensive major every 3 years, you could probably skip some of these item every other time, but if you are resurrecting a BBi from a lot of years since last being well sorted (and some of these items have never been serviced ever since birth) = that's a different kettle of fish IMO.

 

It's soo much easier to work on when engine is out, the "While you're in there" concept is pretty powerful.

Some thoughts:
Diff? (Was it ever upgraded?)

Axle seals?
Side cover O-rings?
Axle boots?
Shift shaft seals?
Injectors?
Dizzy cap/rotor
Distributor advance-mechanism service?
Ign wires?
Air filters?
Spark plugs?
Thermostat?
Clutch?
Pilot brg?
T/O brg?
X-fer case seals?
Alternator service?
Starter service?
Oil hoses?
Fresh plating & powder coating - as necessary?
A/C service?
Water hoses that run to front of car?
Clutch slave rubber hose?
Oil pressure sending unit?
Clam shell gas struts?
etc...

Again - just some thoughts.

 

what is this?

only if they look very old or damaged ( so hoses and pipes )

most of the other things needs nothing when they are ok. only gaskets and seals I would repalce

but: never touch a good running system

 

The transfer case input shaft seal, under the T/O brg guide. They get hard and weep oil. Not too tough to replace - as long as you're in there.

Those long water hoses age out. I've seen this on several 308's. Maybe they don't get as bad on a Boxer ?? On my 308, I was inspecting hoses when I first got it. The car was 9 years old. I felt the water hose near the rear head and it was hard and brittle, so I flexed it while pulling, and it broke right off! I cut off ~ 10cm and inspected, thinking maybe the hose was damaged by heat close to the head and found it full of cracks on the inside wall. I cut back a few more times just for curiosity and found the same condition. Again...maybe the boxer hose doesn't age as badly? IDK, but I had no record of it being replaced and the car was ~30 years old, so it became a 'while-you're-in-there' thing for me. It was not a super easy job. I think just fishing the hose through the frame tubes ate up ~ an hour. It could possibly be done with the engine in, but would be more challenging.

 

sorry, still not know what you mean. can you post the parts number for this seal please

 

Gladly - FPN 109340

When the bell housing & X-fer case is off, it's underneath that dark grey steel guide tube that the T/O bearing rides on. You undo the 4 M8 nuts, and it sits inside that guide.


Also, more stuff while you're in there which is probably silly to mention:
Engine oil - lots of it! (Technically speaking)
Gearbox & X-fer case oil
Coolant

I think the water pump bearings and seal was mentioned?

I remember doing my last EO service. It was quite rewarding to freshen up the beautiful beast!

 

what is this? parts number please that I can look

 

Sorry 'X-fer case' is short for 'Transfer Case'

Look at part # 31 (part number 109340)
015 - Clutch And Controls parts diagram for Ferrari 512 BBi | Maranello Classic Parts (ferrariparts.co.uk)

 

thank you
but as I told alraedy: never toucgh a running system.
as as long as there is no leak not do anything. the clutchbellhousing you can remove easy when the engine is in the car

 

Hi all!Is it possible to do a belt change without an “engine out” service?

 

Good day Stuart,

Rifledriver stated that he was able to do a timing belt change without removing the engine, but that it was not a method he would recommend. That said, I would be curious how much time was needed via this method, as the area is very compact with very little room to maneuver... along with challenges to remove items, etc.

Removing a Boxer engine is trivial and once out, a number of other things can be done and perhaps should be done at this time.

Cheers,

Sam

 

Short answer….. NO

 

Also lots of scrubbing and cleaning.

Was inspection of the CV joints and freshening the axle grease mentioned?

 

Brian is correct. It is possible to change the belts w/o removing the engine. Back in 1985 I purchased a 76 BB in Italy for $20k. The engine had then 9 year old original belts. Unfortunately I didn't have the budget to do the engine out. My go-to mechanic, Charlie Pierson did the job. He drained the fuel and removed the tanks to gain enough access to change the belts. Sadly the Ferrari world lost Charlie a few years ago. Great guy and highly skilled.

But as Brian said it's not the right way to service a Boxer.

 

Just to be a contrarian, I can only speak to the 365BB, but we routinely do belt changes with the motor in the car. Takes about 8-10 hours (if you take your time) from the time you remove the nose and drain the coolant until you restart the engine with the job done. No need to remove fuel tanks. I am probably too stupid to know it can't be done.

 

Agree 100%. Why snowball a job replacing parts that are simply not a problem area that are easily accessed with the engine in place?

 

The primary obstacle in doing belts in the car is the oil tank. A part not present in a 365.

 

All very true in an already well maintained car previously serviced by the same person. A situation almost never experienced. In 99% of the BB majors I have ever done from about the time the cars were 10 years old the car is long past a normal service interval with a great many deferred service items and is often in the hands of a different owner than the owner who had the last service done. Sorting out previously performed bad repairs is very typically a large part of the bill all by itself. It is one reason I almost never give any kind of estimate until I have car in shop, on a hoist and have spent an hour or two looking around the car.

The cars are 40+ years old, more than enough time for a great many hands laid on them, many sadly have no business doing so and we are left to undo their misdeeds.

 

Brian: Thank you. The oil tank in the way would be a problem. Sometimes simpler is better (or at least easier).