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Belt Change / Valve Adjustment / Electromotive Install

Discussion in '308/328' started by jimshadow, Jul 12, 2008.

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  1. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
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    #51 thecarreaper, Jul 29, 2008
    outstanding thread. great work.
     
  2. jimshadow

    jimshadow F1 Veteran
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    #52 jimshadow, Jul 29, 2008
    I think you meant .050mm. .005 would give you the ability to place the clearances exactly where you want them. You can't really adjust an intake valve at .229 (Spec .20-.25) because going up or down one size would put you outside of the range...
    I will adjust to the loose side of spec and go with that.

    JIM
     
  3. jimshadow

    jimshadow F1 Veteran
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    #53 jimshadow, Jul 29, 2008
    After reading Fastradio's post about how he measures clearances, I decided to re-measure all my valves. I had noticed some slight differences when the cam lobes were not pointing straight up, so this time I made sure that every lobe measured was pointing straight up away from the valve shim so I was measuring the on the heel of each lobe. Here are my results from the 2nd measurement:

    Intake: .009 .010 .011 .011 .009 .011 .011 .011 (.229 .254 .279 .279 .229 .279 .279 .279)
    Exhaust: .013 .014 .015 .013 .014 .015 .014 .013 (.330 .381 .356 .356 .356 .381 .356 .330)

    From all this I only see 4 clearances truly within spec. (.229 and .330 shims) The .356 exhaust numbers are just outside spec, but if I throw in a .050 larger shim to tighten it up, then I'll be right on the 'tight' side, so I'm inclined to leave those alone.....thoughts?
    Tonight I"m going to pull the .279mm shims and mic them and order the next size up to tighten them to approx .254 and the same for the .381 exhaust shims.

    JIM
     
  4. Brian Harper

    Brian Harper F1 Rookie
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    #54 Brian Harper, Jul 29, 2008
    Oops. decimal trouble. But you get what I meant.
     
  5. Brian Harper

    Brian Harper F1 Rookie
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    #55 Brian Harper, Jul 29, 2008
    I also saw that clearances off the lobe differend a little depending on where on the backside I was. This turns from science to art pretty quickly, doesn't it?

    This is how I see it. The purpose of the valve clearance is to ensure that the valve has as much lift as possible and the correct duration while absolutely ensuring that under no circumstances does the valve not close all of the way when everything gets hot and dimentions change.

    So do you set for the biggest gap on the back side of the cam or the smallest?
     
  6. jimshadow

    jimshadow F1 Veteran
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    #56 jimshadow, Jul 29, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2008
    Well, since the clearances will tighten over time, I'm going to go towards the higher spec number. I should be able to get the .279 clearances to approx 250 by going up .50mm in shim thickness.

    EDIT: Looking at a website for FIAT shims, they come in .005mm increments. I'll see what my source tells me tomorrow. :)

    JIM
     
  7. jimshadow

    jimshadow F1 Veteran
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    #57 jimshadow, Jul 29, 2008
    All my valve shims were pulled and measured. Only 1 of the 12 shims that I pulled had the measurement on it, the rest were blank.
    The front bank was challenging, but not as tough as I thought it would be. I did have to twist and contort a little. :)
    I will order new shims in the AM and they should be to me by Thurs or Friday. (They are coming from Indy). Once I have them swapped out, then I'm ready to put the cam covers back on. After that will be the belts/tensioners and Electromotive. :)

    JIM
     
  8. Artvonne

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    #58 Artvonne, Jul 29, 2008

    I always shoot for the middle range or higher on the back side, lobe pointing directly away. So on .008" - .010" for example, I try to hit .009". But I would take .010". Clearance dont always change much under normal temps. The valve gets longer, but the head gets taller too. However, when your tighter, the valve runs hotter and can eat up that clearance by getting longer through expansion. When your looser, the valve can runner cooler and consequently gain even more clearance. If they get too loose they can spit out a shim. Better to stay within the spec.
     
  9. Brian Harper

    Brian Harper F1 Rookie
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    #59 Brian Harper, Jul 29, 2008
    You copped out, Paul! You didn't answer the question. When your base circle has variations, do you adjust to the looser or tighter clearance?

    And yes, being in the middle would be great, but the given range is tight and the shim intervals are as great as the allowable range. So if you have to choose all the way to the the tight end of the spec or all the way to the loose end of the spec, which do you choose?
     
  10. chairpilot

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    #60 chairpilot, Jul 30, 2008
    YES! I would like to know that answer too. I smell this project coming up for me too very soon.
     
  11. Artvonne

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    #61 Artvonne, Jul 30, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2008
    Im not "copping out". How accurately its ground on the backside isnt important. Whats important is that it has "continuous and uninterupted" clearance until it hits the ramp, and thats where the degree wheel comes in. That dial shouldnt flicker until the opening point. If the cam were ground perfect enough, you could run .0005" clearance and still have the duration you needed while keeping the valve seated long enough to cool. But they want more of a safety margin than that and its built in. So basically the clearance establishes duration, and duration establishes seat time. It all works out.

    So I still stand by what I said, I pick the middle and try to hit it, or go plus to max clearance. If im sweeping clearances and find one a thou over max I leave it alone, if I find one a thou tight I fix it. I stay on the loose end at all times. Its really not anything that deserves this level of complexity. If you want a bit better power, go tighter. If you want it to last, stay at the loose side of spec.
     
  12. jonesdds

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    #62 jonesdds, Jul 31, 2008
    Love to lend a hand when you decide to go for it! This is a project I'd love to see in person.

    Jeff
     
  13. jimshadow

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    #63 jimshadow, Aug 6, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    It seems like it's taking FOREVER! Between planning the 308 Event and trying to get this car back together, there is just not enough time in the day! :) (They are good problems to have, however!)

    A little over a week ago I ordered valve shims from a shop in Indy. Well, when I got them home and started to put them in, I was finding ZERO clearance...Not good! Turns out I had not moved a decimal point when I was converting back and forth from SAE. DOH!! So, I shuffled around the ones I could and wound up 2 short, so yesterday I drove to Indy to get them. (I'm only 1.5hrs away) Got them both in the car in about 4 minutes. So...I have the valve adjustment completed and the cam locks in place. (I know...the cams won't move, but its my 1st time and I don't want to have to go back...)
    Hopefully I'll get to work some tomorrow night because I'll be camping over the weekend.

    Also, the Electromotive is on the way from NICK. I'm VERY excited!!!!

    JIM
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  14. jimshadow

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    #64 jimshadow, Aug 12, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Well, the belt change is complete! This part has been the easiest so far. So much has been written on changing the belts in a Ferrari that its a little intimidating, however, its a piece of cake! Couple things that I noticed.....

    The old belts are definetly worn. You can tell that they have been through many heat cycles and are much more pliable than the new ones. There were no tears in either one. My car gets driven plenty. I can see the need for changing belts at their interval. My belts were last done in Nov. '05 and many thousand miles ago. (probablly 15-18,000)

    The front bank tensioner bearing was more 'stiff' to turn than the rear and it was throwing out its grease on the motor side, however the innards looked to be just fine. Much less lubrication on the motor side vs. the outer side of the tensioner, but I"m not 100% convinced this is where my noise was coming from. I PRAY TO G*D that its not the lower drive bearing....

    Speaking of the lower drive bearing, the outer bearings were replaced in early '06 ala Eugenio, and I have the pictures to document it. There is no visible sign of the bearing leaking and neither drive pulley was loose. How often do these fail in regularly driven cars??? I can't imagine one would go in just under 3 short years....but then again, it is a Ferrari and anything can happen. :)
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  15. jimshadow

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    #65 jimshadow, Aug 12, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    So, I'm ready to put the valve covers back on and I need to know what I can use to clean the aluminum surfaces? I gently used a flat razorblade and cannot get everything off. Any suggestions? Also, I'm attaching pics of the old gaskets....Is there REALLY a reason to use this much silicone sealant???? I bought Ultra Black RTV to use in the corners by the cam gaskets, but do I need to run a bead all over the gasket or paint it all up with silicone??? The latest thread that I read said the green gaskets seal well and you only need a dab at the corners....


    Lastly, I found the reason my Distributor seals were leaking....one of them was put in backwards!!!!! I bet it leaked on day one.
    I forgot to order these, so I'll be doing that tomorrow....

    JIM
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  16. celestialcoop

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    #66 celestialcoop, Aug 13, 2008
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2008
    Jim,
    Thanks for sharing your pain! 'appreciate the pics & narrative. Good Show!

    However, I share b27's and Birdman's concerns. I think you will miss the 'cooling' effect of the A/C. I recall that the windshield/dash area was a real heat sink on my '75 GT4. I installed the underdash vent kit & amped up the blower motor. That helped to push more cool air at the occupants, even with the old York unit. Since you're not building a track car, the 24 pounds lost won't make that much difference. Heck, consider a modern rotary compressor: Lighter, smaller & more efficient. There are other improvements available, too. Check with Verell & other members. There is a better way.

    Keep the air; your wife will appreciate it...so will the girls!
    Coop
     
  17. jimshadow

    jimshadow F1 Veteran
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    #67 jimshadow, Aug 18, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I'm very frustrated that this project is taking so long....I guess life is getting in the way. :(
    I got the rear valve cover back on. I'm using Hondabond on the gaskets and a matchhead dab of RTV on the corners by the cam seals as recommended in many a thread. We'll see how she goes. The front bank is requring a TON of cleaning on the head. It looked like the last time someone was in there they did not want to spend the time scraping off the old gasket, so they just used more silicone! NOT FUN!!!!!!!!!!!
    One thing that I noticed (and I'm glad that I did) is that my cam seals walked 'outward' a little bit, especially on the intake cam of the rear bank. I was just tightening downt the cover and noticed that they were out quite a ways, so I got it all corrected...

    I've started reading the instructions on the Electromotive...I'm REALLY excited about that upgrade!

    JIM
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  18. chairpilot

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    #68 chairpilot, Aug 18, 2008

    Those dist seals are unbelieveable Jim!! And, a bit scary. What moron (professional?) mechanic could do that? I'd be suspicious for more things like that now............(!#@$#@^%@!). Sorry, that just got me......

    So, did anybody comment on the best way to clean the alum surfaces - w/o a blade?

    I'd keep soaking the gasket flim with a solvent (or?), overnight even laying a dampened rag along the surface to keep it "wet", till it was as soft as possible then scrape it with a sharp plastic edged object, like an electrical wall switch or outlet cover.

    I just realized you have two valve heads....more "open" space between the cam lobes (mine's a QV)!

    Last - where did you get the (green) cam cover gaskets from?


    Looking GOOD JIM!!!
     
  19. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
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    #69 fastradio, Aug 19, 2008
    Jim,

    In cases that I've run across where there's an abundance of sealers, I'll remove all of the valve cover studs and clean the gasket surfaces with a popsicle stick and acetone. This combination seems to work very well for me and is unlikely to damage the soft aluminum.

    Nice job!

    Regards,
    David
     
  20. jimshadow

    jimshadow F1 Veteran
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    #70 jimshadow, Aug 19, 2008
    The dist seals got me too...no wonder my front bank was leaking there prety well. I'm sure it happened long ago as the seals are the very old style that have the metal frame around the backside. The new seals look very different. They are a pain to get out btw...you have to be careful not to damage the housing.

    I got the green gaskets from GT Car Parts.

    JIM
     
  21. jimshadow

    jimshadow F1 Veteran
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    #71 jimshadow, Aug 19, 2008
    David,

    Thanks for the advice!

    JIM
     
  22. Artvonne

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    #72 Artvonne, Aug 19, 2008
    Dont get discouraged Jim, your getting there. That gasket cement takes elbow grease to get off, you just have to contort yourself to get down in there and and use some muscle, it will clean up. Lacquer thinner on ScotchBright pads helped me a great deal, and a good quality scraper is a real friend. Razors are great, but sometimes you need something with a stronger edge and a long handle so you can push harder.

    I did something on my first 308 I have never done before on any car, only because I thought i'd read it somewhere, but I put permatex copper on the cam seals. By the next day all four had pushed out and started to cock sideways. Just wanted to advise you they should be installed completely dry. I wiped down all engine sealing surfaces and the seals themselves with lacquer thinner and they never budged. On the second engine I didnt put any lil dabs of silicone on the gasket ends either. I cut the gaskets flush with the edge's and left it alone. The seal fits pretty tight in the bore and in almost 3000 miles I never seen so much as a drop of oil appear anywhere around the seals. On gaskets I rubbed a tiny amount of silicone into the surface and that was all. Just let them tack a lil bit and put it together. You dont need any more than a fine film of them if everything is clean. Really, the gaskets will seal fine without any silicone. I use the silicone to help out when I take it apart by not allowing the gaskets to stick down like the ones your scraping off.

    While that backwards dist., seal certainly makes you wonder, I dont know how much it would actually leak. Check your oil breather system and the drain hose to make sure everythings completely clear. On both cars the breather return hose down to the front of the engine was deteriorated badly. I would take the breather can and soak it in solvent or carb cleaner overnight and shake it out to make sure its clear. Also check the screen is clean on the airfilter housing. If the engine builds up high internal pressure, it can leak from just about everywhere regadless of which way your seals are facing.
     
  23. jimshadow

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    #73 jimshadow, Aug 26, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Well, the motor is just about back together and i"m starting the Electromotive conversion. A quick call to Nick tonight sorted some things out for me and with any luck I should have the car running by this weekend!
    Ran into a bit of a problem with the top stud on this blank cover. Posted in the tech session to figure out a fix. Take a peek there...I may need some help with this one...:(

    JIM
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  24. Irishman

    Irishman F1 Rookie

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    #74 Irishman, Aug 27, 2008
    I am very curious about the mounting of the trigger wheel and the fabrication of the bracket for the coil packs.
     
  25. jimshadow

    jimshadow F1 Veteran
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    #75 jimshadow, Aug 27, 2008
    I'll post pictures this weekend. I'm having the mount re-made as it was originally done in steel which was too heavy for the OEM coil bracket screws.

    JIM
     
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