would it be safe to say that; no matter what they show, you won't be satisfied? You want something real; what a rolling chassis? They said that won't be unveiled until November. I get the impression that because of yours (& others) massive hatred for Peter Windsor, that unless they unveil the equivalant of this years Brawn car, the ridicule and attitude towards what they're trying to do will be non-stop... So what if PW tried to form a team years ago ; haven't any of you started something that didn't pan out? maybe it's me, but you act like he's a con man. (This isn't a personal attack; FYI) Kevin
I'd like to see something that fits within the realistic time scales defined by the first GP in March. Campos is on that schedule with having shown us a windtunnel model of the car. So no, they could show me stuff that would satisfy me. Windsor has done this kind of thing before in the eighties and it failed. And one of his partners actually did end up in jail because that guy was a con man. While it is true, that I can't stand Winsor, you're missing a few points: - it is not just FChat where people ask questions, but all over the place on the internet, just do a google search - it is not just armchair bloggers like us who have doubts, but people in the know like Benoit and Ecclestone - the reason we focus on USF1 is because that would be "our" team, however similar scrutiny could be applied to the 3rd team, which seems to have not much to show for either - finally the thing that irks me the most is, that there is a real risk, that the Ferrari B team will not be on the grid because a smoke-n-mirror team might be using its space, and that's just plain wrong PS: Don't try to make this a personal issue between us and Windsor. There are a lot of unanswered questions; lets not distract from those please.
Fair enough; but comparing them to Campos isn't apples to apples. Campos has been a working operation; as of February this year UsF1 only had two people and a PowerPoint presentation. Since then they have: secured investors, hired staff (20 people?); leased office space; got that space up and running; got FIA approval; leased office space in another country. Pretty good start to me for the past 6- 8 months. I'm not preaching that Windsor is the next Brawn, but I'm impressed that it has progressed this far. (also the pictures from the site are what 6-8 weeks old?) Kevin
So they spent 6 to 8 months to accomplish all that. Now they have 4 months and some change left to do "the rest": - hire the necessary staff (about 250 additional people) - train the staff, build a team - build the components of the car - hire two drivers - test the car - build up spare parts - buy the entire racing infrastructure (trucks, tools, tents etc) - make all the logistical arrangements for getting all that stuff/people around the world - I'm propably forgetting a ton of things here Don't you think they're somewhat behind in their timeline? Again similar comment applies to the 3rd team.
On the flip side - how do you know they haven't? Don't forget the fota mess that PW admitted, delayed them. I know you want complete transparency, but why get so worked up over lack of information about trucks etc at this point? You & I don't have a dime invested with them. To paraphrase Rob Smedley, 'Andreas baby, relax' there's too much stress in today's world to argue about whether or not USF1 makes it to the grid my 308 has a leak in one of the valve stems - waaay more troublesome than trying to predict the outcome of USF1 Kevin
Actually I'm fairly relaxed. True, but I have a "vested interest" in the Ferrari B team. One look at the Abu Dhabi grid today will show you why. My 308 has a stuck gas pedal and now developed some ungodly vibrations in the steering wheel. Yes, that is very troublesome. But I'm not sure it is more important than USF1 is to me: Imagine we're all wrong and USF1 makes it to the grid and becomes a nice competitor in F1. That would make Charlotte suddenly a site of pilgrimage for me. I would swallow my pride and gladly visit their gift shop to get my USF1 hat and t-shirt to represent them at the next GP in Europe.
If not for budget reasons, why? A two continent effort would seem to require more, not fewer, people.
True, but I have a "vested interest" in the Ferrari B team. One look at the Abu Dhabi grid today will show you why. Not following you; does your company sposnsor one of the cars? If so, I'm envious!
Tifosi12 wrote: Imagine we're all wrong and USF1 makes it to the grid and becomes a nice competitor in F1. That would make Charlotte suddenly a site of pilgrimage for me. I would swallow my pride and gladly visit their gift shop to get my USF1 hat and t-shirt to represent them at the next GP in Europe. I actually think they will be a decent competitor at some point. (But I'm optimistic by nature); i wish they had merchandise now. I would wear for the novelty of it alone...
Absolutely! Even an empty facility in Spain would have to have minimum 5-6 people answering phones, cleaning whatever. The back at base manufacturing facility would have 20-30 in design, machine and composite/support minimum. The team, let's see: 3 truckies plus 3 gofors. 4 (?) hostility chefs/waiter/staff 6 engineer staff 6 IT staff 4+ PR wallahs 3 (or more) team principals 8 mechanics 3 drivers So at least, 75-80 there and that would be the minimum IMO. Gone are the days when I ran 2 F1 cars, constructed 80% in-house with a total of about 20!
Aside from not building an engine (Cosworth) they have stated they will outsource wherever possible; where it makes sense. Here are Ken anderson's quotes: While Formula One teams have grown into large organizations with sometimes as many as 1,000 employees, Anderson is seeking an advantage in smaller size and outsourcing. Every team, because they feel obliged to keep their 300 designers busy, all make their own bespoke calipers, he said, adding, You just get this ludicrous kind of spending frenzy: Spend to hire people and spend more to keep them busy. I just see them getting bogged down in the management of all these other people, he added. Outsourcing is cheaper in the United States. In Europe, as the market for Formula One is so crowded, suppliers tend to provide better service to richer teams. All the teams in Europe are basically going for the same products, Windsor said. So from every angle it was logical to think about doing a team away from all that stuff and having to pay different prices for things, deal in a different way and have low-hanging fruit from which you could pick in terms of your outsourcing.
Again a good point. Why wouldn't you be selling merchandise? When a sponsor appears, sorry 'if' a sponsor appears, you start a fresh line. These sales cost nothing, plenty of places like "Main Gate" who would handle everything, you just pocket the royalties. Meanwhile it's a 'sell' point as to the exposure and goodwill following the team. Even Brawn had a shop page from it's announcement.
That may or may not work when designing a new car but adds a significant delay when making upgrades during the season. Even if they start the season with a Brawn like advantage we've seen that it won't last. A delay of even one or two races in bringing the mods to the track would be fatal. Add the trans Atlantic issue and it will take even longer. Most teams already outsource engines so there is no manpower to be saved there. AFAIK No team makes their own brakes so no labor saving there either. More importantly I like to know why economy is being stressed over competitiveness.
True as well. Even in the good ol USA, labour cost is one of the highest part of the expence. OK some machinery gobbles up a lot of cash, but they are operated by the primo people. They are competing with a lot of local high tech facilities, and are not getting any price breaks. As stated, the time to change design flaws is immediate when in house. How can you e-mail your designer in NC, they investigate, they modify, then they need to have the outsourcer drop everything? That not cheap, whereas the staff machinist is on call and costs what, $50K? For that you get at least 2000 hours availability, $25/hr. Can't outsource for that guaranteed.
Of course not. You said you have a 308, so in my book you have a "vested interest" in Ferrari. That to me includes the A and the B team. BTW: I collect all the Ferrari F1 cars. A and B team alike. Makes no difference to me. As Enzo said: The engine is the Ferrari, the rest is just something to wrap it in. Cool. Motorland will be run by operators from India.
+1. Been there, done that. Here's an example of not believing it until you see it. Everyone remembers the $10 Million Hawaiian Super Prix Invitational, right? Of course not. Because it never happened. And this, all despite having a veritable who's-who of drivers from Indy, F1, Nascar, IHRA all signed up. They had a website, sold tickets and even merchandise. I still have a golf shirt. But in the end, it never happened. Apples, meet oranges. However, my point is that it's racing, and in racing PR and buzz are a very big deal. When has there ever been a team created from the ground up of the caliber F1 commands but under such a vacuum of information? These guys are 4 months from rollout--EVERYTHING--and what do we know about them other than a few photos that frankly could have been taken anywhere. Personally, I have nothing against Peter Windsor. And I'd love to see it happen. But the bottom line with USF1 right now is it isn't passing anybody's smell test.
Bow and I were employees for Team surtees back in the mid 70s. When we first built the new car for 1976, the TS19 I think there were 2 machinists, two fabricators, Big John and Ken Sears in the drawing office. Two secretary types. one truckie and us two plus a Japanese mechanic. We built everything except the body fibreglass and engines/gearbox. I was the one who painted the tubs between races in addition to doing the suspension and transmission rebuilds for 2 cars. generally the truck got loaded Tuesday night, left Wednesday, arrived Thursday. We flew in Thursday and set up. Practise Friday/saturday. Race Sunday then clear up, load up trucks, dash to airport for the FOCA charter home, watch race on TV that night! repeat as necessary. At the track the truckie was the gofor and tire guy. A good truckie did all the behind the scene dealings, trading our stuff for others. We switched several cases of London Rubber product for cheese and wine from a certain Italian team from Maranello! Each car had 2 mechanics, engines were usually changed before qualifying and left until the next race qualifying, about 500 miles. Gearboxes were rebuilt night before the race with a new CWP, wheel bearings and CVs repacked after inspection. Possibly new brakes, bleed brakes. Plus any changes to springs/shocks/swaybars/gears/wings between each session. No hospitality, in fact when I first started, John Bisignano (remember him?) was making food for the smaller teams from his small motorhome. We generally had a sandwich on the run with a pop. We turned out a new car about every 2-3 months. All #18 cars had odd number chassis and all #19 had the even #s, eg TS19-02 was the first car for Jones at Long Beach. 'Plunger' drove TS19-01 in South Africa and Long Beach. That car sold to one Nick Whiting, brother of Charlie, and was driven by Divina Galicia in the British F1 series.
